Posted by observer (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 12:25 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Thanks, Kevin, for trying to set things straight. Serving on the Preservation Commission is indeed a thankless job, but fortunately we have knowledgeable citizens who are willing to put up with the insults and ignorance of the blogging public to do a good job for the city. The fact that the elected officials work against their own commissions is evidence of what power mongers they all are. Won't somebody please step up and run for office to replace these politicians who are only out for themselves. Come on, y'all. Time is short.

Posted by peaceout (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 12:33 a.m. (Suggest removal)

i can't stop laughing and i've only seen *Axis of Evil*. this should be good.

Posted by fire39212 (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 12:43 a.m. (Suggest removal)

LOL@peaceout

Posted by fire39212 (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 12:47 a.m. (Suggest removal)

The Hysterical Society should go around to these places that they care so much about and rake the yard pick up the mess....Bill the owner make themselves some money...

They could have made some money off the previous owners of the church....Shoot just think they could have had those windows...lol

You will never make me believe that there isn't a few dollars slipped into there pockets from some of the owners so they won't have as much trouble getting done what they need done.....

Posted by Savage (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 12:50 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Thanks Kevin, for this opinion. The only successful industry Natchez has at this current time is TOURISM. And our history is the lure for tourists who come to this town. If we destroyed our historical buildings and beautiful natural sites, we've lost EVERYTHING. Thank heavens for our Historical Foundation for keeping this city alive. The only hysterical people in this town are those angry losers who are too stupid to understand this fact.

Posted by peaceout (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 12:52 a.m. (Suggest removal)

this may do the opposite of what you are hoping for Kevin. good luck!

sup fire?

Posted by fire39212 (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 12:53 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I don't think anyone has a problem with them preserving downtown....People just want more Jobs here..Let me rephrase that. good paying jobs with benefits.....So there children have a chance of staying in Natchez....

Posted by fire39212 (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 12:56 a.m. (Suggest removal)

hi peaceout....

Posted by peaceout (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 1:07 a.m. (Suggest removal)

a storm is brewing. make that 2 storms. this one and the rain on the way.

Posted by noneya (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 1:08 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Well Mr. cooper, you must have a little bit of "ignorance" about you also to have written this article without having had first hand experience with the NHS when it came to dealing with them while trying to renovate/build/restore in the downtown area. As I said earlier on posting, the gentleman trying to build an office building at the old service station at the corner of Main/MLK finally gave up because he couldn't get any co-operation from them....ON ANYTHING!!! They had the gall to submit THEIR drawings to him what THEY wanted him to build....DOWN TO WHAT PLANTS THEY WANTED HIM TO PLANT! he got tired of trying to deal with them that he told them to heck with it that the whole lot could stay as it was and grow up in weeds for all he cared that he was through with trying to please them. I might add that he didn't have any shoddy plans or materials he was wanting to use, and the building he tore down was really an eyesore. What if he had just opened it up as it was (and old gas station)how would everyone have liked that right downtown?!
And what about the people that painted their house colors that the NHS didn't approve of and it had to go to court? Lucky for the home owners...they proved their colors were authenic to the time period! But they had to spend their money to go to court!!! Do not get me wrong, I do know and realize that the NHS is a needed and necessary organization and I shudder to think what Natchez would look like without such an organization,BUT (and there's always a BUT) to not understand why there is some negativity concerning this group makes you part of an ignorant group also. I apoligize to you if I have offended you sir, but as I see it, you have offended me also.

Posted by fire39212 (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 1:36 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Amen noneya preach on.....

I saw that peaceout..

Posted by fire39212 (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 1:38 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Was this guy a black gentlemen who was trying to open this business up noneya? I was just curious.....If so i can't wait to see ijohnsons comments on this...

Posted by noneya (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 1:41 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I'M not the one that was doing the preaching here! A reporter should be investigating both sides before purposely offending people.

Posted by fire39212 (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 1:43 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I totally agree with you.....I was just amening you on telling him....

Posted by noneya (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 1:44 a.m. (Suggest removal)

No, he is not black and he has really good taste. He also bought a house if front of the antebellum house owned by Joe Ming and had a round with them when he went to replace the windows. THAT house was a brick ranch-style built in probably late 40's 50's...but yes, they had their say in that decision also.

Posted by fire39212 (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 1:47 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Imagine that.....I read this artical three times and i thought surely i had just misunderstood when i saw him caling people ignorant....That is one way to pi## somone off fast....

Like i said earlier i DO NOT see them out there trying to clean up downtown places by picking up trash cutting grass with there time that they invest...

Posted by noneya (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 1:51 a.m. (Suggest removal)

My point is that sometimes people DO HAVE A VALID REASON for their negativity! It isn't just manufactured out of thin air! There's a reason why some people are unhappy with this group! Old, old, historic buildings by all means protect. 40's and up?

Posted by peaceout (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 1:53 a.m. (Suggest removal)

you did'nt misunderstand fire.

Posted by fire39212 (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 1:56 a.m. (Suggest removal)

i agree....But, I also think if they care as much as Kevin is trying to make out that they do, They would be out trying to make all those eyesores a much cleaner place....What would it hurt if they got out there and cut the grass, picked up trash,limbs etc....They to good for that???

There is a reason for the most part, people call them the Hysterical Society ......

Posted by fire39212 (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 1:57 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Yes he was.....

Posted by noneya (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 1:57 a.m. (Suggest removal)

To bring in Nazi's or "The Axis of Evil" was WAY OFF COLOR and he was totally out of line to be comparing ANY of Natchez and surrounding area's citizens to them!

Posted by fire39212 (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 1:59 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I have always wondered why it is they wouldn't want businesses here....With Good paying jobs and good benefits.......Someone explained it to me in one sentence....It was....."It's all about hand me down money"

Posted by noneya (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 2:06 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I'm not going to accuse them of doing that by any means, but I know...FOR A FACT...it's their way or the highway even for non-historic buildings.

And SAVAGE, How DARE you call anyone a loser!

Posted by noneya (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 2:09 a.m. (Suggest removal)

One does not have to be a "loser" to not agree with everything a comittee sets before them. Statements such as yours does not help with their (NHS) image either.

Posted by unc (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 2:10 a.m. (Suggest removal)

One has to wonder how the Nachez Democrat got approval to build a contemporary building in the so called historic district. When the builing on Pearl St burned, very shortly the Democrat was allowed to go into heir present building that would never pass muster for anyone else. Having owned a house in the same area at the same time I can say the hysterical commission was alive and well, wonder wy some folks can build an outhouse and be approved and others have to put up with such foolishness as what windows to use in a renovation? Keep up the good work preservationists. We in Concordia Parish can use all your help. We really appreciate all your good work .

Posted by peaceout (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 2:13 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Kevin stooped to the level that he claims to disdain so much in this piece. i just thought that as the Editor you were better than that.

IT'S HAILING!!!!!

Posted by noneya (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 2:14 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Well I can tell you for a fact where there is some "hail"going on!!

Posted by noneya (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 2:17 a.m. (Suggest removal)

The very idea of calling his readers ignorant and comparing them to Nazi's or the axis of evil is reprehensible and unbelieveable!

Posted by peaceout (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 2:20 a.m. (Suggest removal)

the hail i mean.

Posted by peaceout (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 2:20 a.m. (Suggest removal)

it's fitting i think.

Posted by peaceout (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 2:22 a.m. (Suggest removal)

you just can't post twice in a row. they always come up backwards.

Posted by noneya (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 3:03 a.m. (Suggest removal)

This whole article REALLY has gotten to me!
1st: he doesn't think ppl should be so upset about raising taxes, that is...IF there is a clear outline of how the money will be spent. Wasn't there an outline when "the hamburger tax" was passed? And he wonders why ppl are dubious of yet another tax that is supposed to do what the other tax was to do?
2nd: he acts like it's a GOOD thing that ppl that disagree with the PRESERVATIONIST have to go to court! How much money does the average homeowner/restorer/whatever have extra to have to go to court and pay expensive lawyers just to be granted the "RIGHT" to be able to install windows of their choice in a ranch-style home? Why should they have to do that? Why? Just because "volunteers who are donating their time" say that they should be following what they say do? These people donating their time must think their time is much more valuable than the average homeowner about town, because delay is often very expensive in construction and no one is going to tell me that it's a good idea to stop progress and "let's go to court" to get this issue resolved. This city elected Aldermen to be their voice...let the people be the judge and keep disputes out of court!
3rd: Mr. Cooper, you make it sound like it's a sin that ppl move out of town or take their businesses to the bypass. Why shouldn't they? parking is a big problem as it is, what do you suppose it would be like if EVERYBODY wanted to move back downtown and fill every single building. Where they gonna park? A business owner that spends enough money to satisfy the NHF's regulations will expect to see a large enough volumn of customers to offset the cost of restoration/renovation. AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN without adequate parking!
4th: you all know the rest of what ticked me off about this story...if citizens don't agree with all that NHS does, then we're the axis of evil (Nazi's)and ignorant and negative to boot. Mr. Cooper, I refuse to read your paper ever again...print or online (not that I guess you care anyway).

Posted by unc (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 3:36 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Parking wouldn't be such a problem if business owners didn't have to park their delivery trucks and personal cars in the front door of their shops. Just check he 400 block of Franklin and the 4 ane 500 blocks of Main St.

Posted by shedevil (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 3:46 a.m. (Suggest removal)

The NHS is a group of want-a-bes that are on an ego trip.

Posted by shedevil (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 3:55 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I wonder how many of the bypass crusaders run ads in the natchez democrat?I see very few of the downtowners ads.

Posted by cherron (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 4:45 a.m. (Suggest removal)

i can prove everything that kevin stated as false, even paperwork. and tax write offs

Posted by ntzmom (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 6:20 a.m. (Suggest removal)

"They must care a good bit in order to put up with verbal punishment from the true Axis of Evil in Natchez — negativity and ignorance."

So anyone that disagrees AT ALL with some of the Historical Society rules, by Your definition Mr. Cooper is "the true Axis of Evil in Natchez — negativity and ignorance." ???

Wow. I can;t beleive you would call your readers that,
I am really speechless.

Posted by ntzmom (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 6:58 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I just re-read it, you start off by saying that some of your readers think of them as "an axis of evil"
then you end your story by saying that your readers are the "TRUE AXIS OF EVIL"

I am so stunned, still speechless, and gettting angry. I am going to put this computer away for now, ( shaking my head in disbelief)
Still saying wow

Posted by gemccull (Gary McCullars) on February 17, 2008 at 7:52 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Okay, now, calm down.

“The Axis of Evil” may have been a little too strong for Sunday morning reading.

The ”hysterical” society is misunderstood by some of us. I think it tries to follow some general guidelines for restoration of properties and we, the citizens, probably do not have an in-depth knowledge of the guidelines. In all likelihood, neither the owner nor the historical society understands all the ins and outs since sometimes it can be a matter of interpretation.

Yes, I am one of the nay Sayers, the uninformed, the one with a missing gene, etc.

I did not take the last sentence as slap in the face to any subscriber of the paper or a citizen of Natchez. Hardly a week goes by that the “blue haired” ladies; the Historical Society, etc are not the subject of intense (good and bad) comments for the stories/articles in the on-line edition of the paper.

Just my opinion.

Posted by colescreek (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 8:15 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I agree in principal with what the NHS stands for and does. It is a necessary part of this ongoing historic downtown project. Having said that, there is no way they are going to please all the people all the time. It depends on where your building is, and what you want to do with it. If you want to do something "out of the norm", then you better have your research done and your paperwork in order because you will have to prove it to these people.
I have been to some of these meetings and I don't know how in the world they would pad their own pockets. The things they are discussing have nothing to do with them personally. And they are dedicated to what they are trying to do. I can't imagine any project that would need their approval going through the process of bribing all of these people. It would be so much easier and cheaper to just do the building by the rules like the rest of us.
Some of these same people who will not work in the guidlines set forth by this committee also do not agree with the rules in the US Building Code. So they find themselves at odds with all the departments in the city. Sure does make it difficult. I'm not saying I agree totally with all these rules. Its just a whole lot easier to work with them inside the system that banging your head against the wall from without.

Posted by adamstanton (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 8:22 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Well, Well,Well it is comforting to see that what I heard as a child is the truth," Natchez, where the old south still lives". Well I am not sure it is the old south that still lives there but the same argument the same control issues that have been going on there for years and the sad thing about it is that while I read about the control of this and that it is obvious that outside forces are in control of that town.
How depressing to go home and remember the vibrant city that Natchez once was with its bustling streets and many places to eat and dance and to go now and see empty building after empty building.
I spend tons of time in New Orleans and I go to the Quarter alot but also there is the New Orleans outside the Quarter that is updated and new. I just spent time in San Antoio and went to the river walk area and it was nice and I toured the Alamo but once you leave there it was a vibrant and completely modern city. I was recently in San Francisco and it was great to visit the old areas of the city but it too was very vibrant.
I see where a city the size of Natchez has lost real jobs, ie; International paper, Armstrong, Johns Manville, Diamond Ineternational probably close to what 5500 jobs of that caliber with those type benefits and ya want to talk about windows, what color the house is, who is in control, it is obvious no one.
So take a vote, choose a color and paint that wagon cause ya may need it on ya way out of town.

Posted by hellcat (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 8:44 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I am not believing this article. Mr Cooper, you should think before you speak. 3rd person would have saved your hide this go round. Now you've made it personal. I personally have a friend, who wanted to start a business, a very good, profitable business that would have created jobs with benefits, an environmentally safe business. The site would have to be on the river for it to have worked and he was going to put it in Vidalia. He got a personal visit from some members of NHS telling him they would do whatever they could to make sure his business would never get passed because it would be an eyesore from our side of the river. This is a respected, hard-working businesman.
People from out of town I met had bought a house in downtown and were having fits because of the NHS. They moved here because they thought it was so beautiful, they had no problems keeping the integrity of they home they bought within NHS guidelines, they just wanted it a color of their choice. Taking away someone's personal choice isn't being Nazi-like? In what way? Didn't George Hamilton paint his purple? Just to piss NHS off? I am not uneducated, ignorant, not evil. I do, however, listen to people's complaints when having to deal with these unreasonable people. As long as it's kept in good taste not NEON)who are they to pick people's color scheme. I also agree with everyone else in saying, if they are in place to keep downtown beautiful, why aren't they out there cleaning up the eyesore's around town. There is a beautiful antebellum home falling to ruins right now, what are they doing about that?

Posted by SimpleSimon (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 8:56 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Pretty well follows my thoughts adamstanton. Earlier savage mentioned "The only successful industry Natchez has at this current time is TOURISM." He's partly right... only he could have left off the successful part because its the only industry. I suppose Natchez needs to invest heavily in it because its the only thing keeping their retirement community alive. I'll go back to what I said in a much earlier posting... Think about the person that is supporting this tourism industry. On average they are the waitresses and fast food workers. Except for the waitresses who make less per hour the fast food workers make minimum wage. Anybody checked the price of milk lately. The cost of one gallon of milk eats up their first hour of work and more if they have more than two kids.
UNC I hate to disagree with you... "Parking wouldn't be such a problem if business owners didn't have to park their delivery trucks and personal cars in the front door of their shops. Just check he 400 block of Franklin and the 4 ane 500 blocks of Main St." Parking down town stinks. I refuse to go downtown unless I absolutely have to because there is NO parking. If downtown was "revitalized" with business booming then the NO PARKING would be even worse even if the business owners had to park all their vehicles outside of town and catch a bus to work. This town isn't some theme park except maybe to a few... the rest of the folks want good jobs so they can put meat on their tables and have some nice vehicles to drive.

Posted by kpage (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 9:50 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I don't know what to think about the hysterical society. I realize they do wonderful things in Natchez, but with such arrogance! I, too had a friend move to Natchez because of the beauty. She completely renovated her "new" home and waited on the HS to approve her color scheme. She waited, and waited. Then, the answer was "No". She fought and fought, trying to prove the colors were historical. She won the battle but was so put out with the city and its inhabitants that she sold everything she owned and moved back to Yankee land (she had a problem socially after the battle with the HS, can you imagine). Such a sweet girl with so much potential for contributing to the Natchez area. Now she's gone, along with a few others I came to know who have tootle-ooed straight to the airport.
Like I said, I have mixed feelings when it comes to the HS. Six in one hand, half a dozen in the other. Maybe it balances out, I don't know.

Posted by Idefinitelymight (Tom Scarborough) on February 17, 2008 at 9:52 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I don't think Mr. Cooper was calling anyone a Nazi. He was merely pointing out that this highly pejorative term--along with a host of others--have been routinely applied to those who are trying to preserve and protect the architectural heritage of Natchez from those who don't recognize its economic and historic value. On any number of occasions I have winced at the careless use of this term in these very forums.

As I have read the comments above, it again becomes apparent that a lot of our residents blame tourism and preservation for the lack of "good" jobs in Natchez. Apocryphal stories (such as the ones contained in an above post) abound, describing the nefarious tactics of the dastardly preservationists to drive away businesses and potential employers so that Natchez will remain the elite playground of the "blue-hairs" and the "blue-bloods." Perhaps there have been instances where the preservationists have been overzealous in their efforts to protect the historic structures of Natchez. But these moments pale in significance to the amount of good these folks have accomplished.

Tourism does not come at the expense of economic development. While our local tourism industry may not be the proverbial golden egg, it is at least an egg--one of the few we have right now. People come here to spend their money because they want to see what we have to offer--and what we have to offer is pretty unique. Our historic district is what distinguishes us--it is what make us gorgeous. Lose an historic building, and it can never be replaced. Lose enough historic buildings (or disfigure them badly enough), and we will have eliminated the very thing that makes people want to come to Natchez. Our city would become just another bland, anonymous American town. Do you really believe that without our historic district visitors would have any compelling reason to come to Natchez? Do you really believe that businesses and industries are just dying to locate here, and would do so but for those vile preservationists? If you do believe that, then perhaps Mr. Cooper is spot on in his condemnation of the twin evils of negativity and ignorance.

Posted by kpage (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 10:12 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Just as white people will never know what it's like to be black, or Asian, and will never understand the issues that plague their lives, so, too the "elite" will never know what it's like to be one of the blue-collar workers who live paycheck to paycheck and the issues that plague their lives. You actually have to walk in that person's shoes for a while to even get a hint at the experience. Most elite I know would look in disdain at my shoes and refuse to even come close to them, just as I might resent someone telling me I can't play on their playground because my daddy doesn't have a "town name". Regular, hard-working people don't take too kindly to being told how to spend their money and are rebellious enough to refuse to live "inside the box". I say follow the rules if you insist on living in the historical area, but if you don't like being told what to do, build in the county or parish. Then you can walk around nekkid without anyone calling the cops on ya!

Posted by leda (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 10:15 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Natchez was a beautiful and striving town, even before oil. It has a rich history that should be explored and preserved. Preservation does not have to be an ugly word. Planners should visit other historic towns, north, south, east, and west. Learn and plan.

The planners need to represent blacks and whites. Blacks have not be given credit for the work and craftsmanship they contributed to the building of those stone white mansions. A museum featuring their contributions, researched and visual in its displays, even including hands on and interactive exploration.

Natchez has many plantations, one could serve as replica of a working plantation that includes depicting slavery. Be brave, think out of the box. Don't be afraid to acknowledge the past. Include real working fields, crafts, and long lost skills. Include oral histories.

Natchez is so rich in history, so rich in the gift of gab. Tell the stories and show the past. Use the history to rebuild. But, stop the superficial and move deep. Plow the soils and work to bring the community together. Face the past, honor all citizens. Sometimes that means showing the good and bad.

Natchez has always been unique. Use that unique quality to create a living picture of not only beauty, but history and mistakes that were made; so they won't be made again.

Posted by elvisss (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 10:16 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I keep seeing people write things like, “Give us good paying jobs with benefits!”

Whose responsibility is it to provide these jobs to you?

Posted by dangyankee (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 10:29 a.m. (Suggest removal)

In fairness to Mr. Cooper, he didn't call his readers or anyone else negative or ignorant. In any case, "ignorant" does not equate to "stupid." I am not a stupid man, but there are many areas in which I am ignorant--that is, I have little knowledge or experience. If I oppose an idea, a tax increase or whatever, based solely on "gut reaction" or because I'm having a bad day, etc., without taking the time to educate myself about the merits of the proposal itself, I am indeed guilty of being "negative."

In any situation, any proposal's worst risk is being quashed by uninformed opinion--opposition based on virtually everything BUT the proposal's merits. Even in a family setting that is true: If I were to suggest, for instance, that my far-flung family have a reunion here in Natchez, I would expect them to listen to my reasons, then form their opinion based on that. If instead the only reaction I got was, "We don't wanna go there! What's down there? What a stupid idea," etc., well, I would be depressed, mostly because they were opposed "just because," without even giving me valid reasons why. If instead they reacted with, "Dude, that's a thousand miles from any of us--have you checked gas prices lately? Then, there is the time involved; it would take 2 extra days of travel on each end, and we just don't have that much vacation time," etc. Well, those would be valid reasons for their opposition, and I could respect that.

Opposition based on information is not "negativity;" opponents who disagree based on information are not "ignorant." People who shout down any proposal, based solely on their perception of the source of the proposal, rather than the proposal's merits, are in fact literally ignorant and guilty of "negativity."

So, yes, I see Mr. Cooper's point, and it is absolutely valid.

Posted by kpage (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 10:30 a.m. (Suggest removal)

When I get my degree, I am moving away because there will be no jobs for my line of work. I realized this when I made my career decision but then again, what does this area have to offer anymore? Only tourism. That it is and nothing more. This is why the population is shrinking. No jobs=no inhabitants=no money contributing to the tax base.

Posted by SimpleSimon (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 10:39 a.m. (Suggest removal)

First off well said kpage

elvisss, I don't expect anybody to "give" me a job. I can get a job for myself that is no problem. However, the point is that its not the individual that brings jobs to the community its the town or the area. What tax incentives are available- what lures do you have out there to bait in these good paying jobs that will help your town to prosper.
We blue collar workers make up the brunt of the work force and if there are not enough good paying jobs then we are going to be forced to move and take our children with us. Can Natchez survive off of tourism alone? Me, I have a good paying job but I am on the road and gone about nine months out of the year. Is that a good way to raise your kids or how you want to spend the rest of your life? Probably not, but it pays the bills, puts food on the table, and leaves some left over that I wasn't getting working locally. So yes, I dont give a rats rectum about tourism I am concerned with good paying jobs with or without benefits. (as most companies are going to without) Tourism has its place but if you want to keep your middle aged, middle classed, blue collar work force in place then thought needs to be placed into luring in lucrative jobs and not just elite jobs where all they want is college degrees. Unless you want the town to be a bunch of technocrats living in yesterdayville....

Posted by kpage (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 10:51 a.m. (Suggest removal)

SimpleSimon, you said "Tourism has its place but if you want to keep your middle aged, middle classed, blue collar work force in place then thought needs to be placed into luring in lucrative jobs and not just elite jobs...". That's the point, Simon. That's exactly what is NOT happening. I guess some people don't realize that it takes "every kind of people" to make up a work force, and that includes blue collar and white collar classes. Of course we need doctors and nurses, but we also need the truck driver to distribute goods we desire, the burger flipper to fix our lunch the way we want it, and even the ditch digger...the world needs them too! Even a manure recycling plant would feed a number of families in our area. Like I saw someone post earlier, yes tourism is our #1 industry, but it ain't the golden egg.

Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 11:13 a.m. (Suggest removal)

This is an interesting use of metahpor Kevin. Nazism was only another form of socialism, national socialism; a reverence for the good of the state over the good of the individuals within it characterized by the intermarriage of industry and government under authoritarian control. The fasci, a bundle of sticks tied around an axe, symbolized all the various aspects of society (the sticks) under this control (the axe). In this type of government the labor of the people is taken to support the aims of government and business. The Nazis also had the good of the people at heart (some of the people anyway).

Although highly popular in this country as well (google photos of American children pledging the flag prior to 1945), this American brand of National Socialism came to a head in 1934 with the McCormick-Dickstein hearings in which General Smedly Butler explained to Congress how members of the DuPont family, Chase National Bank, U.S. Steel, Goodyear Tire and Rubber, Standard Oil and others including Prescott Bush tried to recruit Butler to overthrow FDR's brand of socialism and institute a fascist state like the one being formed in Germany.

This is one of the vague reasons many people oppose taxes of all sorts. People instinctively feel, erroneously, that when their money is taken by government for whatever use, government can't be trusted, especially when government seems unduly under the control of private interests and is married to those interests.

Of course, we don't see that type of activity in Natchez and other small towns, as the duly elected Tourism Council and the duly elected board proposed to decide how the new hotel and restaurant tax will be spent is representative of all the interests of Natchez with it's members of the Casino Cartel, Pilgrimage Tours, and restaurant industry. No rational parallels can be drawn between duly elected persons proposing and instituting taxes, and taxes imposed by authoritarian control. It is for the good of the people for the people to pay for advertising for these businesses.

Posted by southernbelle (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 1:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Hello ya'll , I heard one time that to be able to get anything done a person has to be a little extreme . I believe a lot us qualify . We are a passionate group!

Posted by ntzmom (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 1:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Very intelligent post SQUIRREL.
(sarcasm)

Posted by sentas (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 2:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I'm glad the article came out simply because it got a vow of out "noneya" to never read the paper, including the online version, again. So that means we won't have to see anymore Noneya posts here, right?

This thread is an elegant proof of everything Cooper wrote.

Posted by notfromnatchez (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 2:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)

WOO HOO!!!

Daytona 500!!!

Go Jeff Gordon Go!!!!

Posted by notabigot (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 2:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I noticed an editorial earlier in the week about "following rules". I believe it was about the FBC Building and their apology to The NHS. The writer of that article had a problem with the breaking of rules and suffering no consequences because of it. Now Mr. Cooper is worried about "the city making a mockery of the NHS rules". It seems to me that Mr. Cooper needs to read the terms and conditions of use that this paper has posted and then read some of the posts that are on this forum. He would do better to learn to enforce his own rules. Yous can't hold people to standards that you are not willing to hold yourself to.

Posted by Tris (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 2:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)

When I moved here over 5 years ago my daughter-in-law (whose Mother was born and raised in the Natchez area) told me that there was 3 kinds of money in Natchez.
1. Old Money
2. New Money
3. Drug Money
I have come to believe she was right. The old money or money inherited through family is here, at least until the younger ones decide there is a better place to live and raise a family. New money made through investments and maybe politics will stay here as long as they can make a profit. Now the third, Drug Money. That seems to be an ever increasing business in Natchez. In the time I have been here the problem has been on the rise. I don't care what the Cheif of Police says, crime and drugs are a huge problem in Natchez and it doesn't seem law enforcement is doing much about it. A while back in the ND there was an article about an auto repair shop on St. Catherine. The police said it was a drug den where dealers hang out yet nothing is done. The shop had operated for 10 years without a business license. What was done, nothing except the owner was told to get a license. If the NHS and others want this town to grow with new business coming to town and folks staying here to raise a family then they better clean up the drugs and crime. If that means new Mayor, Sherrif, Police Chief and other political freeloaders then so be it. If something isn't done then the NHS and Garden Clubs will not have anything to do because all the old homes will be falling down crack houses.I have said before that the Mayor when he ran for election said he would clean up the old falling down boarded up houses and trashy lots. Other than the Pecan Factory what has he cleaned up. Isn't he running for re-election? Maybe now would be the time to start cleaning house.

Posted by ntzmom (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 2:25 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I have worked wih the Natchez historical Foundation renovating two buildings on Main street.
I had no problem with them. By them, I mean Mimi and Ron Miller. They are great people.

I think people blame the garden club for the no industry, not Ron and Mimi Miller.

Posted by kcooper (Kevin Cooper) on February 17, 2008 at 4:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)

All: Good comments. I'm glad this has sparked some discussion, as I'm sure we can all learn from each other's opinions.

Dangyankee and idefinitelymight: Thanks for understanding my points and explaining the difference between stupid and ignorant. The use of the word "ignorant" enrages some people without good reason. I'm ignorant of lots of things ... nuclear physics, practicing medicine, juggling, playing the drums, etc. Saying someone is ignorant simply means they don't understand or haven't had exposure to something.

First, people who refer to the “Natchez Hysterical Society” when they often intend to refer to the Natchez Historic Preservation Commission often wind the Natchez Historical Society into these kinds of discussions. The phrase "Hysterical Society" often is used to refer to the process of building or renovating things -- which can include several different city boards and commissions, depending upon the scope of the work.

NHS is a non-profit that, as far as I know, is no affiliated with the City of Natchez. The NHPC is a volunteer board, appointed by the city's leadership. NHPC is intended to help enforce city preservation regulations.

As some of you suggested having the NHPC go onto private property and cut the grass and tidy up, while they might like to do that, it would, I think, be trespassing. As a volunteer board, I doubt they have the legal ability to go onto private property and do such work. The City's Planning Department officials can, however, do just that. In fact, they're SUPPOSED to be done that. We have a "Code Enforcement Officer" position, which is supposed to be policing such things.

continued:

Posted by kcooper (Kevin Cooper) on February 17, 2008 at 4:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Someone questioned my experience with the process. I've covered a good many of these meeting when I was working in the newsroom several years ago and I've personally been to a few meetings recently. When we took the plans for our new building before the Preservation Commission, they asked us good questions, suggested some minor changes and we went on our way. No fights, no feuds and certainly no pay-offs.

Noneya: You have not offended me. I appreciate your comments (and others here). The diversity of opinions is what makes our country great. No one comes knocking at your door here just because you disagree with someone or the government. Encouraging a good, positive exchange of ideas is why we first began allowing comments on this site. Through truly trying to understand other points of view, I think our community will come closer.

Noneya: I'm not sure I understand which spot you're referring to ... Main and MLK? I don't recall a service station being at either corner there. I think (going off memory here) that that corner is: Natchez Fire Department's Central Station. Hefley's Refrigeration, Good Year Tire and Ahrens & Henry (investment group).

Also, I'm not saying that people won't disagree with the NHPC and its decisions, but when you buy a piece of property downtown, you know (or should know) what you're getting into. Years ago, the Natchez Metro Planning Office used to give away an "owners manual" of sorts for anyone seeking to buy in downtown. The book covered all of the dos and don'ts of the city's regulations.

Thanks for reading and for the discussion. Each of you, even if we don't agree, is what makes Natchez unique -- and home.

Posted by sayitloud (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 5:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Well Mr Cooper I have to actually agree with you on this last comment of yours that when someone buys property in downtown Natchez or downtown ANYWHERE USA that is "historic" you should do your homework first to find out things! Otherwise, move here and build a house in Beau Pre.

I'm just saying

Posted by sayitloud (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 5:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I can't help but wonder why SOMEONE doesn't do something to that man (slap a fine on him) that owns what USED to be beautiful Arlington!

Posted by kcooper (Kevin Cooper) on February 17, 2008 at 5:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I agree with you, sayitloud, but Arlington is just the largest of a number of such properties that need attention. Arlington is certainly among the most depressing of those properties.

If you look hard, you can find similar problems (perhaps on a small scale) along almost every entrance roadway into the city.

A number of them can, and should, be addressed by the planning department. We have laws prohibiting these dilapidated structures, but little enforcement seems evident.

Posted by sayitloud (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 5:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Very true Kevin and also very sad.

Posted by southernbelle (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 5:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Arlington has become a heartbreak to all of us that care . If the present owner doesn't have the resources to rebuild and restore then the right thing to do would be sell it at a fair market price to someone that cares.
I appreciate this forum. It gives us a voice on what's important to us . Thank you, Kevin . It's okay to disagree

Posted by sayitloud (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 6:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I too wish that man would let someone else take on the responsibility of Arlington and do the right thing with it. Every time I drive by it it breaks my heart.....for a house that used to be a "Grand Mansion" and a testament to the old south it has sadly become an eyesore because of this man not caring. He shouldn't have bought it if he wasn't going to live in it and take care of it.

very very sad.

Posted by texasranger (anonymous) on February 17, 2008 at 11:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Hurry up and tax us some more, so folks like Binkey VInes can empty the cash register, or the one at the tag place that gave away $15,000 in tags and nothing was done.
I love the way our politicians wisely steal our money.
pay back a dab and then land another job, which he already has one. Hiring a thief in Natchez is business as usual.

Posted by adamstanton (anonymous) on February 18, 2008 at 7:05 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I would like to write this and that and think that things will change in Natchez economically but it won't change anything. As far as the NHS it is nice to come home and see Natchez looking as it has for so many years. A Lot of what has happened to the economy there was set in stone long ago decided by people with the ability to make things happen. I rode the City of New Orleans from the Crescent city to Chicago recently and it didn't go thru Natchez. I have driven I 55 many times and it doesn't go thru Natchez niether does I 10 or I20 and those are realities. When I P was built along with many other plants in this country the day they open they have a life expectancy and after WWII we were rebuilding the world, Europe, and Asia and what was needed was materials produced at a fast rate by a cheap work force and the area was ripe for that. Now we are in a mobile society needing highly educated and highly skilled workers and the area isn't ready for that and thats the bottom line.

Posted by mike8427 (anonymous) on February 18, 2008 at 7:08 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Noneya, why did your friend buy a house downtown if he had so much trouble getting that business building up? The way you told the story he was furious with the NHS, then why did he buy a house downtown and work on it after his last experience?

Posted by DahlingILuvUButGiveMeParkAve (anonymous) on February 18, 2008 at 7:48 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I think that people are getting the Natchez Historical Society www.natchezhistoricalsociety.com and the Historic Natchez Foundation www.natchez.org confused. Before you make any comments, why don't you go on their websites and see who they are and what they do before you comment.
Some of you posting have got it all wrong and are commenting on what you think you know, not reality.

Kevin, great article and thanks for the chuckles!

Posted by ElGoodo (anonymous) on February 18, 2008 at 7:48 a.m. (Suggest removal)

The fact of the matter is, Natchez needs an industry other than tourism. You really can't blame folks for thinking the leaders of the one industry in town have political power, because they do. If Natchez were only a steel town, folks would be convinced the steel barons were running things. People are probably getting tired of low-paying, service related jobs. It's not uncommon for folks who can't get a leg up to blame others, especially when options are so few locally.

I'm a history buff and love Natchez for its history. I appreciate the Historical Society for the work they do but its that history that drives the tourism. Once again, really the only game in town. Heck, I'd still be living there if I could make a decent living. The members of the Historical Society need to put the mouths where their money is and help get some other industry in Natchez. Until they do, the conspiracies will continue. In this instance, perception is indeed reality until the Historical Society, or its members independently, prove them wrong.

Posted by CHall1229 (Christina Hall) on February 18, 2008 at 8:35 a.m. (Suggest removal)

It isn't the Historical Society's function to bring industy to town. They have a job that their are charged with and from the experience I had with them they do it well. When I lived downtown I had two projects I wanted to do. It took two trips to handle them, one to find out what the regulations where and one to give them the info they wanted. And because I worked within the parameters that I was given (and was told about before we bought the house) I did not have any trouble at all with the NHS.

Posted by roberth33 (anonymous) on February 18, 2008 at 10:29 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Natchez DOES have "industry" besides tourism in and around the area:

1. Medical Care
2. Farming
3. Livestock
4. Courts
5. Education

Said it before and will say it again, "industry" is GONE from the USA. It is in India, Asia, Mexico, South America.

It AIN'T coming back to the US and it ain't coming back to Natchez.

Posted by ElGoodo (anonymous) on February 18, 2008 at 3:55 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Not true Robert. Where I live is half the size of Natchez and has 5 times the industry and manufacturing. They turn a pretty good tourist trade as well.

As far as nationally, non-union areas seem to have no problems holding on to their manufacturing jobs, for the most part. MS has actually added a good number in the last few years, just not Natchez.

Posted by ntzmom (anonymous) on February 18, 2008 at 5:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)

chall, as far as renovations go, I too have dealt with them and had no problems. I own a building on Main Street , I did own two, did work on both, then sold one.

I am not sure who is holding us back from getting industry, but I do know that fixing property up downtown is not a huge problem.

Posted by NatchezEnema (anonymous) on February 18, 2008 at 10:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Tourism tax, tourism, and hysterical society. 1st If you think tourism is the #1 industry in town go to any resturant, bar, or lounge and ask the owner, "give up local customers or tourists" doubt you would hear "let the locals go I'm going with the tourists." So much for who would pay this tax. Most tourism jobs are min wage, no benifits & high turnover for a dying breed of people looking for the old south.How often have we heard we need a convention center and more hotels so they will come or we don't have interstate hwy. We have a convention center, it loses money, Hwy 61 and Hwy 84 are almost 4 lane all the way to an interstate, many hotel rooms are not filled. I have an article from the Democrat when the convention center was about to open, it interviewed the locals downtown, "oh this is going to make Natchez boom,oh this is going to double tourism they said, let the numbers speak for themselves. I travel to conventions everywhere, the last in Orlando, staying at the closet hotel you have to catch a shuttle unless you want to walk for 20 min. So much for blaming hotels not being close enough to the convention center. You can walk out the back door & be at the eola in less than 4 min. Lets say for example you had a retired couple who came to town in 1980 with their 2 teenage children, they were not here to tour the houses go to a convention or gamble. What are differences Natchez offers today, NOTHING! Imagine if all McDonalds had to offer the last 28 years was a BigMac. They would rot on a vine! Industry is fast moving and demands new ideas,new people & new solutions to an ever changing world. We sit while towns like Tunica,Tupelo & others grow in fast strides. I highly doubt if you asked anybody where Tunica was 28 years ago around here they could have told you. Look at the city today! Depending on cell phone provider you may not get service in some parts of Natchez, & to think a couple of years ago some of Natchez' brightest were fighting new cell phone towers going up! Please!... TO BE CONTINUED

Posted by NatchezEnema (anonymous) on February 18, 2008 at 10:53 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I had to take certification tests out of town a few years ago. I knew there was a historical land mark in this town. I checked in the hotel in this town. On the way to the hotel downtown I noticed the bustling crowds, Nice l.e.d. signs Modern stores, nice sidewalks with neon signs. A historical town with a modern look & feel. After checking in I went to the front desk & asked where I could catch a shuttle or cab to this historical landmark. I was amazed when told all I had to do is walk 2 blocks. Really? downtown in the city? Know where I am talking about? The historical landmark was the ALAMO! town was San Antonio. On my short walk to the Alamo one thing stood out more than this modern downtown, What if the Natchez historical society had been over San Antonio, what kind of town would it be? I doubt anybody would say anything in Natchez is more historicaly important than the Alamo, Look at Natchez and you will know what San Antonio would be like.You would have the Alamo in a field with a few gas stations and some people selling pralines talking about more hotels and convention centers so people will come. Attitude effects altitude & until we CALL these people out or run these people out of town, who think all we have to offer is a few old homes with a buggy ride & a pat on the back nothing is going to change You think it's bad now? Wait til the gulf coast is rebuilt, it will be the next Alantic City.... TO BE CONTINUED

Posted by NatchezEnema (anonymous) on February 18, 2008 at 10:53 p.m. (Suggest removal)

You won't be coming here unless your here to bury your grandmother or bail you cuz out of jail. Young people bring change & new ideas, & I am sad to say we lose our brightest. So next time you open the Democrat & go to the bussiness section & see someone who went to school here or grew up here & are taking that job in Jackson, Houston, or New York, Remember that THIS TOWN NEEDS AN ENEMA! One more thing I am sick & tired of this white black thing in Natchez. Natchez was a bustling city with more indians than people today 500 years ago. Everybody has to get along & move ahead! There are only 2 colors in the world, RED for the color all bleed & GREEN for the money all spend! Blacks need to stop whining about the old south ways & whites need to stop glorifying it! This town has so much more to offer, too bad we are busy trying to make a buck off the past instead of trying to welcome the future & growing with it!

Posted by dangyankee (anonymous) on February 18, 2008 at 11:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)

First, let me say that this has been one of the more interesting discussions I've seen in this forum for quite a while, mostly because I've wondered ever since I arrived here over 5 years ago why Natchez cannot attract more industry. My hometown in northwest Missouri is smaller than Natchez, has a worse climate, even worse access (1 highway, until recently just 2-lane), yet is relatively thriving. What was the "matter" with Natchez? I honestly did not understand, so began asking around.

Yes, the Garden Club came up, frequently--but I couldn't see why the Garden Club would even care if, say, an auto plant located on 61 South, so I doubted that was the real problem. Then I read an article in this very newspaper, quoting someone who had been hired to research this very question. The problem with Natchez, in the eyes of businesses seeking to relocate, was that there are "too many private schools" here. Huh? Then I thought about it. What does it mean when you have so many private schools in such a small town? It means the public schools are, or are at least perceived to be, horrible. (Recent published test scores would seem to indicate that the public schools are indeed horrible.) If you're a conscientious business owner, would you want to relocate your business and some of your valued employees to a place where those employees would have to pay to send their kids to private schools if they wanted them to have a decent education?

The ironic aspect of this is that I suspect the private schools did not spring up because the public schools were bad, but rather because they were becoming desegregated. (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong about this.) If that is true, and if it is true that industry shies away from Natchez because of the number of private schools, then it means that Natchez is now being bitten in the behind by the very history that so many try so diligently to preserve.

Weird, huh?

Posted by peaceout (anonymous) on February 19, 2008 at 12:47 a.m. (Suggest removal)

no.

Posted by dangyankee (anonymous) on February 19, 2008 at 1:09 a.m. (Suggest removal)

While I'm on the subject, which I wasn't, but will get there: The essential problem is that we are NOT a "community," really. We are fractured. We are a whole lot of "micro" communities stuck together by geography. There are black people and white people, rich people and desperately poor people, people who work in dead-end low-pay service jobs ("desperately depressin', low-down, mind-messin', working at the car wash blues," as Jim Croce put it), people who read books for fun and people who "go to the boat" for entertainment. We don't see each other as neighbors or friends--when we truly "see" each other at all. Nothing really unifies us, makes us identify ourselves--ALL of ourselves--as a "community." We don't seem to find among ourselves any common interests, or any common anything at all, other than the fact that we all share space in this tiny geographic area. We don't even see that, actually--rather, we all carve out little sections of that geographic area and, like children fighting over space in the back seat of the car, declare it to be "my space, don't touch me or you die!"

A couple of friends and I used to go to Ryan's every Friday. One day, after the waitress had refilled our drinks and we had thanked her for it, she paused, grinned very tiredly, and said, "Y'all say thank you!" like it was the most amazing thing. Well, in Natchez it IS an amazing thing for people to be courteous to each other.

To get back to the "fractured" thing, the various fractured elements not only are seldom courteous to each other, they rarely seem even to respect each other.

In my humble little opinion, I think outsiders pick up on that, if only subconsciously. Who would want to move to a
"community" whose members apparently, or maybe subliminally, hate each other?

Posted by peaceout (anonymous) on February 19, 2008 at 1:47 a.m. (Suggest removal)

i don't think that it's subliminal in any way. it's blatant!

Posted by peaceout (anonymous) on February 19, 2008 at 1:48 a.m. (Suggest removal)

and read the Letter to the Editor.

Posted by niderbip (anonymous) on February 19, 2008 at 6:15 a.m. (Suggest removal)

"...the tax would ONLY affect you if you were staying in a local hotel room. ...the funds are intended to go to support marketing....the only thing that would help the cause more is a clear, concise plan of where those marketing dollars would be spent....."

You don't present the tax PRIOR to presenting the plan. It's not "negative" to worry that yet another tax will be passed and not be put to its "intended" purpose.

LOWER the tax burden on tourists (they're the reason the hotels and homes are open in the first place).

All of this "we're so glad you're staying with us! That'll be another $2..." is the wrong way to go.

---------------------------------------
"In the last couple of years, the current city administration has emasculated the commission by changing the appeals process and occasionally encouraging people to work outside the bounds of the law. Now it goes to the board of aldermen. That’s scary because we all know their law-abiding track record."

And that ain't a "positive" thing.

Posted by skippydammit (anonymous) on February 19, 2008 at 7:36 a.m. (Suggest removal)

This entire "issue" reminds me of the old saying about re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic while the band played on.

As Pogo used to say, "...we have met the 'enemy' and he is US...."

The more things "change", the more they remain the SAME.

Sad for Natchez.

Posted by drawpaintsing (anonymous) on February 19, 2008 at 8:20 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I like what you just said, dangyankee

Posted by southernbelle (anonymous) on February 19, 2008 at 8:52 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Dangyankee , you obviously don't understand southern people. We,as a community are just like most families in the south , we may fuss with one another from time to time ,but we're not going to let somebody else do it. And just let one of us have something horrible happen and we will be by their side with food and compassion. Somebody once said , "the difference between northeners and southerners is, northerners love the race and hate the person , southerners love the person and hate the race ." I don't hate anybody.

Posted by gemccull (Gary McCullars) on February 19, 2008 at 9:20 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Interesting comments from various contributors.

Well, if it is unfriendliness of the citizens that is holding us back, what can be done?

If it is the public school system, that is holding us back, what can be done?

If it is our geographical location from the interstates, what can be done? After all, we have rail service and the river system.

If it the lack of innovation/change, what can be done?

If it is the lack of new technology, what can be done?

If it the lack of utilization of our assets, what can be done?

If it is our illiteracy rate, what can be done?

If it is..............

It seems to me that we lack leadership from our elected officials. We should have a group of individuals (elected and concerned citizens) working on each of the points above plus others not mentioned.

Let's see, we have a mayor, 6 aldermen and 5 supervisors. Each should be leading a group of concerned citizens to solve our most pressing problems.

Just my opinion.

Posted by kpage (anonymous) on February 19, 2008 at 9:23 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Me too, southernbelle! I love people no matter what color or sexual preference. It's the snobs and angry conflict seekers I have a problem with.

Posted by niderbip (anonymous) on February 19, 2008 at 9:25 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Concentrate on lowering the birth rate of children born to unwed mothers. That number has a direct affect on "our illiteracy rate", "the public school system", etc., etc., etc.

No one says anything about that issue.

Posted by ijohnson (anonymous) on February 19, 2008 at 9:26 a.m. (Suggest removal)

((dangyankee)) thanks for being the "outsider looking in" for surely you see what so many of us here miss. Yes ((southernbelle)) we do fuss and fight BUT we don't make up! We tend to drive the wedge deeper and deeper making a wider divide. ((dangyankee)) has really shed some light on a sore that has been festering for many years. We are our own worst enemy. Not the yankees, not the big companies, not the federal government -- we are!

It really shakes me to my core to admit it, but we are -- Black and White. What must we do? I'm not quite sure. But I know that we need to start here, online. The "blame game" needs to stop and the "who owes who" needs to end, too! There's a whole lot of soul-searching that needs to go on in Natchez. A whole lot! We share so much in terms of history but value and respect very little of it! We must change; we must start with ourselves.

Posted by triscuit (anonymous) on February 19, 2008 at 9:37 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I just wanted to say I was amused by this article. I've lived here almost 20 years, and from day ONE I've heard that the garden clubs keep industry away, which is ludicrous.

I agree that ignorance and negativity are the true axis of evil. If you take offense to that, you must consider yourself ignorant or negative, and you must also be proud of it. Weird.

Posted by Krogers (anonymous) on February 19, 2008 at 9:58 a.m. (Suggest removal)

wow, lot of feedback on this article Kevin!! it'll take me a while to read all the above, but...

I see unc and I agree PARKING is an issue downtown, I'm sure other concur.

I think any reasonable Natchezian wants a pretty downtown, when my business was on Franklin St., I never had any problem with NHS or anyone else, except VANDALS AND BURGLARS, so I moved, it was bad back in the 80's.

I cooperated with signage regulations, I would have liked to have a bigger sign, but that wasn't a big deal to me, I spent the money on a nice 3D carved wood sign to blend in with the regs. Business was good, I miss those good ole days of being downtown, but parking was a real problem for my customers, I don't have to worry with that anymore.

Posted by Krogers (anonymous) on February 19, 2008 at 10:18 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Oh, I am a proud member of the by-pass crusade

but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate a beautiful downtown

I kind of resent being pidgeon holed as a by-pass crusader, I think that is taking things a little too far, as well as using the Nazi that is a bit antagonistic.

I think it's good for people to keep the NHS in check, this town shouldn't be cowtowing to any certain group, but have respect for ALL, different strokes for different folks.
This is 2008, we don't all want to live in old buildings, or have our business roped in by NO PARKING and HIGH CRIME.

Why is Kevin pandering to the NHS? Is the Democrat going to renovate soon? It's obvious that there are more than a few people that have some legitimate gripes of NHS, I know one lady that bought a house on Arlington, couldn't get approval of some really nice columns (antebellum style) she wanted to install on the front, she got tired of the BS and sold and moved, that's not good for downtown.

It seems that perhaps the NHS is not consistent with how various people are treated. That's not right.

Editorials and opinions are good to hear, but I want to hear the whole truth, not just the preservationists side.

Posted by dangyankee (anonymous) on February 19, 2008 at 10:19 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Interesting quote, Southernbelle . . . Whether it's true or not, I don't know, but the gist of it seems to be that northerners judge people on the content of their character, whereas southerners judge people based on the color of their skin. Interesting. I'm from a border state (THE border state, in a way, given the "Missouri Compromise" and all that history), so probably I don't fully understand. I'm also from a large family, and know all about fighting amongst ourselves while maintaining a united front when it comes to outside "intervention."

I wish I knew even partial answers to any of the very good questions gemccull poses, above. While I'm not "from" here, I do live here now, and probably will for quite a few more years (at least until I outlive about 17 small dependents), so certainly it would be in my personal best interest for those questions to be answered.

It strikes me that ijohnson is probably close when she/he talks about "soul searching." Social change begins with individual change, after all.

About 15 years ago I had an interesting discussion with a Kansas City Star columnist who had written a column about the real problem being "denial" of racism: It is not the KKK or skinheads or any other white supremacist group--you can see them coming, and defend yourself; instead, it is the person who "loves everybody," the person who absolutely refuses to believe that he or she could be racist because racist is such a bad thing to be. Fact is, all of us, black and white, are racist to some extent, not generally in a cross-burning or rioting sense, but in the sense that we have subconscious, deeply ingrained prejudices towards people "like us." The "trick" is to do enough soul searching, enough introspection, to be able to recognize when our prejudices "towards" one thing are becoming prejudices "against" something else, if that makes any sense.

But I really had no intention of playing a "race card," here. The same can be said with regard to economic differences (rich vs. poor), or, for example, in a military setting, officers vs. enlisted, or educational differences, "degreed" vs "non-degreed", and on and on and on.

Point is, probably our first step toward becoming a genuine, unified community would be simply finding some common ground and working from there.

As I said, I have no real answers. Wish I did.

Posted by redusmfan (anonymous) on February 19, 2008 at 10:34 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Well Mr. Cooper,
I have to ask how the view is from where you stand. I would have to say, after being born and reared in Natchez from The Other Side of the Tracks, that the view that you hold would be very BROWN right now. Medically speaking most human waste coming from the area where you have your head stuck right now has a brownish color on most days. Medicines and virus, along with the occasional bad food, make change the color a few tints, but the average day would be no change at all.

Posted by gemccull (Gary McCullars) on February 19, 2008 at 11:36 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Maybe it is time to kick butt and take names. Our elected officials sit in their "high chairs" and whine. Maybe it is time for the citizenry to demand more than a whine.

Posted by kcooper (Kevin Cooper) on February 19, 2008 at 12:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Redusmfan:

While your post is disgustingly descriptive (and that makes it slightly amusing), it seems to be intended on getting me upset. It doesn't.

I'm not interested in getting into a "where is your head stuck" contest with you. In fact, I only read your comment because someone flagged it for removal. While disgusting, I don't think it violates our policy.

That said, the sooner we all realize that which side of the tracks one comes from has little meaning the better off we'll be.

I am, however, interested in your opinion on the matter.

Since you obviously think I have my head buried somewhere it shouldn't be, where is your head on the subject?

What do you think we should do on historic preservation?

Do you think it has a place in our city or should we just let people run amok?

Are there specific instances in which you feel preservation efforts have hindered growth?

Further, do you have specific experience with either the city's planning office and/or preservation commission?

Thanks.
Kevin.

Posted by redusmfan (anonymous) on February 19, 2008 at 12:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Well, lets clear the air about a few things.
1. I have a degree in Engineering.
2. I have a very high I.Q. and I am not ignorant.
3. I remember the trouble in Natchez for many years back. I had to leave because people in my field have very little to do for a living. In other towns in Mississippi, I have found plenty of work even during hard times, but not in Natchez.
4. The trouble with the Hysterical Society goes back to Old Natchez versus Modern Times. HS has always wanted to hold the downtown area and the areas with the Green Signs (Historical Markers) to a set of guidelines that makes it very difficult to build or improve the area without kissing many butts that belong to the bigheaded egos in the NHS.
5. The age of smokestack industry is not gone. Lets look at Nissan, Toyota, Mercedes-Benz, and many others that have built in the south in the last few years. This is a small list, but the spin-off industry has employed as many people as the actual smokestacks.

So enough, lets look at the real problem. Small minds are the only ones wanting to make tourism the Main Industry in Natchez. That industry brings low-paying jobs for the average citizen. Smokestacks bring higher paying jobs for the average citizen plus all spin-off industry.

WAKE_UP!!!!!!

Posted by kcooper (Kevin Cooper) on February 19, 2008 at 12:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)

redusmfan:

I understand your points. Thanks for sharing them.

However, much of what you point to as a problem is theoretical, not based on facts or specifics.

Someone this morning (who had read my column) asked if I thought the garden clubs and historic preservation folks held secret meetings in some underground lair, complete with banks of TV monitors where they plotted their next fiendish plan. It's a silly notion, but one that seems to permeate in lots of people's minds.

Large industries such as Toyota and Nissan haven't come here for a number of reasons -- lack of large available land, lack of cooperative local economic development efforts (city and county sides always want to take credit), lack of a skilled workforce, poor perceptions about public schools, etc.

Historic preservation regulations are not on that list, at least not that I've ever seen or heard.

The county, where any kind of industrial growth would likely occur, has no zoning restrictions, let alone preservation efforts. It's a wild west ripe for development. But it's one that hasn't seen much take root. To blame that on the theoretical problems of preservation advocates is short-sighted.

Maybe it's not small minds, but realistic minds who are interested in promoting tourism more. It makes sense to me since it's something we have that's unique.

However, focusing on tourism does not, in any way, hinder industrial development. Couldn't both be worked simultaneously?

Let the tourism industry work on promoting tourism and let the economic developers work on hooking the big fish.

Posted by Krogers (anonymous) on February 19, 2008 at 1:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)

thank you Kevin, you have opened my eyes.

A BYPASS CRUSADE !! That is what Natchez needs.

I for one was using the term HYSTERICAL SOCEITY to be phasecious, not serious, but I apologize in my use of that term, I never meant to hurt anyone's feelings. Can we use the term DOWNTOWN CLOWNS? Just poking fun!

But seriously and not to belittle the downtown area - I love that area and will patronize it , and spent a good bit of my youth barhopping there,( I've grown up now and am much more conservative). Anyway, we've fallen into a rut here, and have lost sight of the future. The old bypass roads - Devereaux, John R Junkin, Seargent Prentiss, and Highway 61 N&S - are no longer bypass roads; they are now the mainstays of Natchez commerce, not to mention traffic. We have not planned for the future (unless I am ignorant of pending plans) by not installing a NEW BYPASS that loops further out East of our wonderful little city. Wouldn't it be nice if all the big trucks drove along an improved Kingston Rd that connected around to Palestine RD or somewhere East of town?

That would open up opportunity for industry, put that (I would hope emission standards would be enforced but nevertheless) area downwind for the most part, and divert some traffic away from the high school, the intersection of Linda Lee and 61 (where there are constantly horrendous wrecks!) .

WE NEED A NEW BYPASS CRUSADE!!!

Posted by Idefinitelymight (Tom Scarborough) on February 19, 2008 at 1:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Kevin,

I know for a fact that the streets underneath the entire downtown area are honeycombed by a massive bunker complex in which jackbooted blue hairs map out their strategies for keeping Natchez isolated in the 19th century. It's quite frightening, actually.

Posted by roberth33 (anonymous) on February 19, 2008 at 1:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Thanks for these comment Kevin, unfortunately your words of reason will fall mostly on deaf ears.

Here's an "industry" suggestion. One of Watt's re-election campaign lines was he was going to work on getting a VA Hospital built in Natchez. Well, how about finding out how that is going for Mr. Watts? I think health care is a booming business and definitely something Natchez can continue to expand with.

Posted by roberth33 (anonymous) on February 19, 2008 at 1:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I'm against plowing up good farmland for a highway bypass. The farms need to be supported--not paved over.

Posted by Krogers (anonymous) on February 19, 2008 at 1:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I realize there are some inherent problems of linking rail, road, and river, but with study and planning I think those can be overcome.

Posted by Krogers (anonymous) on February 19, 2008 at 1:53 p.m. (Suggest removal)

roberth33- I have a solution for that - it's called EMINENT DOMAIN!!

Posted by kcooper (Kevin Cooper) on February 19, 2008 at 2:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Too funny, Tom. Downtown is riddled with lots of old infrastructure (pipes, drainage canals made of brick, etc.) but the next time I drive over a manhole cover, I'll be wondering what sinister plot may be being hatched beneath the streets. ... banning all "horseless carriages" from downtown during pilgrimage, perhaps? Mandatory hoop skirts on tour days?

Krogers: Your points about a long-term plan for the city/county are spot on. At one point, we had one, but that's been four or five city planners ago, I think. Not sure if we've got a current one or not.

A VA Hospital is an interesting idea. I wonder what it would take to make that happen? Further, do we have enough doctors and/or VA patients to support something like that? Not sure. If Tom is correct, that notion is probably being thwarted at this very moment in the BHG (Blue Hair Group) control center beneath the intersection of Main and Commerce streets. :)

Posted by roberth33 (anonymous) on February 19, 2008 at 2:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Not sure if we do have enough Docs now, but we sure would if they would build the hospital. It takes years for the VA to actually build a hosp--let's get started! With all the Iraq War Vets the US will have in future years, now is the time to get started!

The VA Hosp on the coast got blasted in the hurricane--Miss needs a site for another VA hosp. Why not Natchez? Think of the jobs and related businesses.

I'll drop a note down the storm drain to the BHG to see what they think of the idea.

Posted by firered (anonymous) on February 19, 2008 at 3:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Thanks Tom and Kevin now every time I'm walking around downtown I'm gonna be looking in every hole and sewer I find just to see if I can eavesdrop on some "secret society" meeting. I'll bet they are down there right now trying to figure out if they can reroute the flow of the Mississippi River just because they wanna see if they can do it... Those ladies I tell you... They go to all kinds of extremes... I'm jealous I wanna go to a secret meeting... sniff sniff!!

Posted by Krogers (anonymous) on February 19, 2008 at 3:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Is there any more history to preserve?

I think the issue is controlling renovation to blend with an historical "old south " look. I don't have a problem with that, but then again I live off the old bypass and have the luxury of a big yard, and can walk my neighborhood streets at night without carrying my .45.

jjohnson - I disagree, while a few of us here seem to have an ax to constantly grind, and you're one of them, there are those of us that do make friends and can bury that old racial hatchet and get along, regardless of our differences.
Can you please brush that chip off your shoulder and get past being so black? I forgive you, it's not your fault. I hope you can forgive me and my family for being slaveowners back in Georgia,the King of England gave us a plantation, what were we to do? But we did give 5 sons to the American Revolution when we got tired of paying taxes without representation. We paid our dues.

So Kevin, let's talk more about those plans for

THE BYPASS CRUSADE!!

ANYONE THAT WISHES TO JOIN THE CRUSADE EMAIL ME AND LET'S GET IT STARTED

Posted by gemccull (Gary McCullars) on February 19, 2008 at 3:55 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Hmm! Jackbooted Blue Hairs! Honeycombed, Massive Bunker Complex!

Now, are the jackboots worn only at the meetings in the bunker?

Posted by peaceout (anonymous) on February 19, 2008 at 4:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)

this guy is the most annoying thing i've seen in a long time. with every post you look like an even bigger idiot and i did'nt think it was even humanly possible for you to get any worse. if i said what i wanted to say to you i'd get BANNED FOR LIFE. i'm considering it though because it would be well worth it!

Posted by gemccull (Gary McCullars) on February 19, 2008 at 4:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Man O' Man!

The Greenbrier of Natchez.

Talk about a tourist attraction for Natchez!

Tom, now that you have let the cat out of the bag, we must proceed with the development of this little known asset!

Jackbooted tour guides, an embellished story line, etc. WOW!

Kevin, you need to get this one going with a story out to the national media. Maybe we will have time to build more hotels, get another boat or two, build some more restaurants, etc before we are overwhelmed with tourists and curiosity seekers!

And to think we have been sitting on a gold mine all this time!

Posted by notfromnatchez (anonymous) on February 19, 2008 at 4:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I come back from a long weekend to read about secret societies...underground bunkers. Hmm...Did someone from Natchez shoot Kennedy? Or is Elvis still alive and hiding in one of the bunkers?

Posted by roberth33 (anonymous) on February 19, 2008 at 4:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I know!! Jimmy Hoffa is running around underground organizing the BHG!

Posted by Idefinitelymight (Tom Scarborough) on February 19, 2008 at 4:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Gary,

These women are not to be messed with. They are disciplined, organized, and cranky.

Just sayin'

Posted by gemccull (Gary McCullars) on February 19, 2008 at 5:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Tom, come on now!

You started this thing, please do not get COLD feet.

However, I suppose we need to do a disclaimer. The next thing you know, someone will be quoting the ND about jackbooted old ladies and a secret bunker!?

Posted by roberth33 (anonymous) on February 19, 2008 at 5:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I hear there is an article coming out tomorrow in the NY Times about the wave of violence in Natchez being perpetrated by blue haired ladies in jack boots.

Better watch your shins!

Posted by peaceout (anonymous) on February 19, 2008 at 6:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)

facetious
adj : cleverly amusing in tone; "a bantering tone"; "facetious
remarks"; "tongue-in-cheek advice" [syn: bantering, tongue-in-cheek]

Krogers should'nt use words he can't even spell!

Posted by peaceout (anonymous) on February 19, 2008 at 6:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Tom, i just saw your post about the tunnels for the first time. good one!!!

Posted by sayitloud (anonymous) on February 19, 2008 at 7:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Heck Krogers should just keep his thoughts to himself period! Totally unnecessary comments.

Posted by peaceout (anonymous) on February 19, 2008 at 7:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)

and he just keeps going and going and going and..............................

Posted by NatchezEnema (anonymous) on February 19, 2008 at 7:42 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I Keep hearing everybody call tourism an industry in Natchez ,Boy,how whipped the masses here must be. It should be called a failing business. Imagine if you or I opened a business and over the last 25 years Our income kept going down, and down, after millions and millions of investment. What would you do? It's easy for them to call it a industry when they are spending your and my tax $'s. If it's such a great business why don't any of the aldermen or supervisors own a "tourist business." Know why? They don't want to loose any money! I would challenge anybody from the Democrat to go to the next board meeting and ask how much tax money has been spent on tourism, or making Natchez "more beautiful for the tourists" the last 25 years and what was the return. If they could tell you from their cooked books. Put it in those terms like a real business owner would. You would then find we need to find something else to do quick.I can remember in the 70's when you couldn't drive down silver st. because 6 or 7 tour busses were unloading tourists to eat at the resturaunts there. Look there today, it's a red flag how bad the tourist business is. What a shame ! What changed? We sure didn't! That's the problem. Silver st, the most historic st. in Natchez with the best view anywhere on the river and 2 dilapidated resturaunts out of business.Call that a sign of booming industry?

Posted by Idefinitelymight (Tom Scarborough) on February 19, 2008 at 7:53 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Enema--The state of Silver Street is the result of one man's grasping ambition to own every building Under-the-Hill, and to make it his personal Neverland. He has killed off a part of downtown that should be bustling with visitors. It has nothing to do with the overall state of tourism in Natchez.

Incidentally, I own a tourist-based business and I'm making a pretty decent living.

Posted by notfromnatchez (anonymous) on February 19, 2008 at 8:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Neverland? Michael Jackson moved to Natchez? That alone should be worth millions in tourism.

Posted by NatchezEnema (anonymous) on February 19, 2008 at 8:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)

There ya go! happy like it is, happy go lucky. I would much rather you said flourishing business, thriving, or booming business instead of decent. Most people that worked at I P or armstrong or any "great industry" made a good living not decent. What's more? Under the hill was heading south before " you know who" moved in

Posted by redusmfan (anonymous) on February 19, 2008 at 8:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Ok, My last word on this today. I remember a few years ago a company was going to bring a waste disposal facilty to Natchez and put it on old Highway 84. I was only reading about it on the net, since I left there many years ago. But it was in the county and a bunch of goody-goodies decided that NIMBY was going to rule on this issue.(NIMBY is an acronym for Not In My BackYard). They had a protest and the company walked away from the project. They also took the payroll and taxes along with them. How dastardly a plan to put a dump in a canyon in Adams county. While the people working at a dump may not get rich, they get equipment operators pay and they get to support their families without taxpayer assistance.
Then I recall that a homeowner that was going to paint the house that they owned in downtown back to the original color that it was painted in the 1800's. This was ok till they NHS realized that it was originally blue. Then they halted the work till the homeowner bowed down and painted it the color that they wanted to match the Hysterical Preservation....(does anybody else see the oxymoron of this particular situation)

So, what part of Natchez or adams County can a project be built in without someone getting their feathers ruffled and getting the project shut down? Anna's Bottom? I do not see any industry taking that away from a farmer that is actually making a profit and covering it with concrete any time soon......

Posted by sayitloud (anonymous) on February 19, 2008 at 8:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Another thing that happened to Under The Hill was also none of our fault and that was 9/11. After 9/11 the Delta Steamboat Company went belly-up and that was when the last of the restaurants, the Wharf Master, shut their doors. No one coming in on the boats made a huge impact and the Steamboat company did come back but it was a full year later but too little too late.

Posted by NatchezEnema (anonymous) on February 19, 2008 at 8:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)

You have got to be kidding! What planet are you on sayitloud! Blame it on a boat? How many times a year did it dock 3, 5 , 6 times? How long did it stay? 2 ,3, 5 hrs? You open a store and expect customers 3 or 5 time a year and see how long you last. I knew one of the owners at one of the resturants now closed, and ate there quite often, it wasn't the boat. It was not enough customers on a regular basis. I'll use his words" Feast to Famine, no way to run a business. I have to find something better to do"UNQUOTE

Posted by sayitloud (anonymous) on February 19, 2008 at 8:40 p.m. (Suggest removal)

me thinks YOU need a bit of your own medicine......an enema.

Posted by sayitloud (anonymous) on February 19, 2008 at 8:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Read my post again.......I clearly said it was ANOTHER FACTOR in the demise of Under The Hill!!

Posted by NatchezEnema (anonymous) on February 19, 2008 at 8:51 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Business 101, Education of your product, Dedication to sell it with a customer demand, And location to sell it. That business had it all just not enough customers, Remember they were relying on mostly a tourist cliental. Not enough customers.

Posted by sayitloud (anonymous) on February 19, 2008 at 9:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I agree with you Natchezenema but you have to look at a multitude of reasons for the demise to Under The Hill.

Posted by NatchezEnema (anonymous) on February 19, 2008 at 9:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Will someone enlighten me on the multitude of reasons for the dimise.

Posted by SayItRight (anonymous) on February 19, 2008 at 10:17 p.m. (Suggest removal)

It's not what they do, it's how they do it sometimes that is irksome. Small town organization members often tend to get caught up in their own ego advancement and position in jockeying for personal power rather than simplifying processes and procedures that can help everyone in the long run. They want to be head honchos and part of a pack that they feel is more important than others. I believe things are often left gray so that people can be swatted down when it is the most convenient for the entity holding the fly swatter at the time.

Posted by texasranger (anonymous) on February 19, 2008 at 10:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Like i,ve always said, the people that own all this historical whatever antebellum homes,downtown buildings have turned AWAY,OVER,AND OVER many many businesses over the years to preserve this HISTORICAL<HYSTERICAL>>GONE WITH THE WIND HOOPLA>
That benefited them, NOT the day to day average plant workers,loggers,mechanics,etc. Now that the economy is hitting rock bottom. The Hysterical or Historical whatever ain,t getting it. They never gave a rip about the rest of Natchez, as long as they can PRESERVE