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photo by Steve VanGunda
The City Bank and Trust in downtown Natchez is currently being renovated to house retail shops on the first floor and condos on the second and third.
New condos coming to Franklin Street
Published Tuesday, June 24, 2008
NATCHEZ — John and Ben Peterson want to offer Natchez a little bit of everything.
The father-son duo is planning to take the 28,000-square-foot building on Franklin Street that formerly was City Bank and Trust and convert it into living spaces called the Franklin Venture.
John Peterson said the top two stories of the three-story building will be converted into condominiums, six to be exact.
Photo by Steve VanGunda
Esteban Cortazar, Hugo Vargas, and Alvaro Llosa watch as other construction workers bring in lunch while working on the City Bank and Trust Tuesday afternoon.
Also, the ground floor will be transformed into what John Peterson called a “beauty emporium,” and will include a score of amenities, including a hair and nail salon, tanning beds, a dress and accessory shop and possibly a small flower shop and exercise area.
“It would cater to women but it wouldn’t discriminate,” John Peterson said.
He said there is a clear need for housing in the downtown area.
“There is a demand; we’ve looked at the market and Natchez seems to be booming as far as we can tell,” John Peterson said.
The two recently went before the planning commission and were granted the go ahead to build the condos.
Photo by Steve VanGunda
Hugo Vargas talks with Alvaro Llosa while pulling nails out of the floor of the City Bank and Trust in downtown Natchez. The building is being renovated to house retail on the first floor and condos on the second and third floor.
City Planner John “Rusty” Lewis said he is in favor of the project.
“I think it’s a real exciting development,” he said.
Lewis said the timing is impeccable.
“Apparently the city bank building has deteriorated significantly in recent years,” he said. “Were it not for the advent of this developer, the Peterson family, it could be past the point of no return for the building.”
Mimi Miller, director of programs for the Historic Natchez Foundation, said the roof and the built in gutters are in poor shape due to water infiltration.
John Peterson said the roof has already been repaired, but that’s just the beginning.
“We’ve got a lot more work to do,” he said.
Right now plans are being drawn up by Johnny Waycaster of Waycaster and Associates.
John Peterson said he hopes to have the project completed by the Great Mississippi River Balloon Race.
“It’s very tentative,” he said, however.
According to Miller, the building was constructed in 1904 as Baker & McDowell Hardware Company.
In 1926, it was renovated by New Orleans architects Weiss, Dryfus and Seiferth, who also built the Eola Hotel.
It was remodeled in the neo-classical style that was popular in the 20s.
City Bank and Trust was housed in the building until the late 1980s.
In 1990, it was sold to Loveta Byrne who transformed it into the restaurant Pompous Palate.
The restaurant closed in 1994 and has been vacant ever since.
Comments
Posted by gottabehappy (anonymous) on June 24, 2008 at 7:06 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Does he have anything other than Mexicans doing this work? It would be nice if people would hire locals for local work.
Posted by OldGrandDad (anonymous) on June 24, 2008 at 8:25 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Maybe the Mexicans are priced competively.
Posted by kpage (anonymous) on June 24, 2008 at 8:32 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Maybe so, OGD. It's a shame but the Mexicans do work the "corner hangers" refuse to do because they're getting a check already. It's beginning to sound like America's future lies with the Mexicans! Just kidding, but it does strike a nerve with me.
Posted by sayitloud (anonymous) on June 24, 2008 at 9:10 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Hey kpage! Yeah I'm with you in that it strikes a nerve with me as well. Makes me sick that locals can't help our own and hire local workers.
what's up with that?
Posted by Natchez3 (anonymous) on June 24, 2008 at 9:16 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I can NOT beleive the comment about Mexicans. At this very moment I am having work down to my house. The LOCALS do not want to work. You can not even get an estimate from them. When you do get an estimate it is so high you can not afford them. Better yet when you hire the locals they DO NOT SHOW UP! Ask around-this is the truth!
It has taken me over 8 months to find someone to show up at my house. When I started this process I had dozens of people tell me good luck -I feel sorry for you. Now I know why.
Posted by OldGrandDad (anonymous) on June 24, 2008 at 9:24 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Yep. Its hard to find folks that will work or even show up. And when you finally (FINALLY) find them , someone wants to sit on the sidelines and ask why you used someone from out-of-town or Mexicans. The truth is, you do what you gotta do.
Posted by fire39212 (anonymous) on June 24, 2008 at 9:33 a.m. (Suggest removal)
You have to hire who works....Rather it be local or other wise....
Posted by natchezsouthside (anonymous) on June 24, 2008 at 9:36 a.m. (Suggest removal)
If locals want to work, show up at the job site and apply. What, you want a gold plated invitation? Get off your butt and SEEK a job! Too many people sitting around waiting for a job to fall on them. The can walk for a bottle of 40 but not a job.
As for thos project--GREAT! Happy to see this taking off. Wouldn't mind getting in on preconstruction pricing.
Posted by Peace007 (anonymous) on June 24, 2008 at 10:11 a.m. (Suggest removal)
The new slavery; prison inmates and illegal mexicans.
One step forward and two step back.
Posted by Peace007 (anonymous) on June 24, 2008 at 10:16 a.m. (Suggest removal)
But on the other hand, the condos are a good thing for whomever will be able to afford them; rich seniors, I imagine. I especially like the idea of the conveniences located on the 1st floor...now, if they will just put in a deli, that would make it complete for whomever lives there to have very little need to ever leave home.
Posted by OldGrandDad (anonymous) on June 24, 2008 at 10:26 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Why you wanna call 'em illegal? You happen to know that for sure?
Posted by natchezsouthside (anonymous) on June 24, 2008 at 10:44 a.m. (Suggest removal)
whats wrong with using prison inmates as labor? they are just sucking up taxpayer's dollars otherwise. why not use their sorry a--es.
Posted by noneya (anonymous) on June 24, 2008 at 11:35 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Hey folks! Kenneth Hedricks is the new police chief in Ferriday! Hoo-rah! NOW we'll see some change!
Posted by overthehill60 (anonymous) on June 24, 2008 at 12:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Wow! When I win the lottery maybe I'll be able to afford a condo in downtown historical Natchez. A dream come true! Hope the occupants will be issued protection against all the thugs.
Posted by freedom42 (anonymous) on June 24, 2008 at 1:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Maybe we could use the prison inmates to build the condos and hotels?
Posted by MayJay (anonymous) on June 24, 2008 at 1:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Did they mention a price point? I would love to have a condo in Natchez.
Posted by natchezsouthside (anonymous) on June 24, 2008 at 1:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)
thugs? in Natchez? puhleeze. Don't be overly dramatic.
Posted by happybunny (anonymous) on June 24, 2008 at 2:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I believe they are listed on realtor.com, I think a little over $400K.
I also had a lot of work done at my house and had similar problems but I would highly recommend the guys that did my windows and siding, the Clark Brothers in Vidalia.
Posted by fire39212 (anonymous) on June 24, 2008 at 2:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)
They are bringing rigs out now that are paying 29.00 an hour for floor hands.But, like you said you have to be willing to work 7 and 7 if it falls on your birthday,christmas,new years etc.. oh well it is still 7 and 7 ..So many do not want to work though. For instance my son-in-law was looking for a hand last week and he had a hard time getting someone to go to work..
Posted by beammeupscotty (anonymous) on June 24, 2008 at 2:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I do all my improvements and repairs myself. I have tried hireing local people and the quality of work is poor and the service really sucks.
Posted by southernbelle (anonymous) on June 24, 2008 at 2:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Maybe its too hot to work
Posted by fire39212 (anonymous) on June 24, 2008 at 2:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)
To hot to work??? Is there such a thing southerbelle?
Posted by overthehill60 (anonymous) on June 24, 2008 at 2:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)
natchezsouthside
I don't think I am being over dramatic. Maybe there's a generation gag between us but in my younger days the defination of a thug was:
"An aggressive and violent young criminal"
Take a few minutes to check your didctionary.
It seems like the community is full of "thugs" read the police reports every day or visit one of the local jails. Who are all these people that are breaking into houses & cars your innocent citizen I hardly think so.
Posted by fire39212 (anonymous) on June 24, 2008 at 2:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)
southerbelle is it to hot to eat or drink?
Posted by fire39212 (anonymous) on June 24, 2008 at 2:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)
You know on the above post i put where my son-in-law had such a hard time finding someone to work That was 29.00 an hour for 40 hours and 44.00 an hour for 44 hours 350.00 a week for food then 350.00 a week for bottom hole pay. You think it was easy finding someone to work....Took almost all week to find someone who was willing to work and that could pass a drug test..
Posted by rushinghjr (anonymous) on June 24, 2008 at 3 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Your stories sound very familiar! The environment in the United States have made these "locals" just like what you all are talking about. Think about it for a few minutes and you will realize the truth! That's the approach of our Liberal past policies of "tax and spend"! If you were to hire persons from "South of the Border, be very careful with their credentials! Yes, OGD, there are many illegals in Natchez as I hear on the street!
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 24, 2008 at 3:11 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Natchez3, small local contractors have to conform to the same policies larger contractors do without the profit made from having several individuals working for them. The locals have to pay for their tools and travel, for their labor, workman's comp and social security.
People are willing to pay a lawyer 125-300 dollars an hour, an accountant 250+ an hour, a doctor god knows what- and don't want to pay a painter 18 dollars an hour, or a carpenter 26-30 dollars an hour.
If you think prices are high now, wait until SmartCode gets started in Natchez...and it won't be long.
Posted by happybunny (anonymous) on June 24, 2008 at 3:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)
What's SmartCode?
Posted by destiny (anonymous) on June 24, 2008 at 3:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)
You're speaking the truth Enkikur. I know, my son is a carpenter and painter, jack of all trades. Will work his self silly to get a job finished. But most people thinks it's a crying shame for him to demand payment for the job. He definitely will not work for min. wages as a lot of people expect him. He'll just draw unemployment until another job comes along that will pay for his work. He just suffered a work related injury and doc. told him to take at least 3 days off. 1 1/2 days he was back to work and when I fussed at him his explaination to me was his boss needed him to finish up the job so his injury would just have to wait. Does this sound like someone who does not want to work??
Posted by freedom42 (anonymous) on June 24, 2008 at 4:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Enkikur - I googled it. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me, except it sounds like people here just thought they had trouble with the Historical Society telling them what they could and couldn't do. Did our tax dollars pay for this, and does every community have to comply with it?
Posted by natchezsouthside (anonymous) on June 24, 2008 at 4:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)
If you live in the Historic District you have to obey the historic preservation rules. If you don't like it move.
Posted by sammohon (anonymous) on June 24, 2008 at 7:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)
EnK...so we have another facet of the Agenda 21 conspiracy in SmartCode?
What do you have against communities adopting a codified method of planning in an attempt to overcome the confusion and enequities built into the patchwork system we now have and make it more fair and efficient for everyone. It gets everyone on the same page in a fashion similar to building codes.
What has this got to do with the Condos? The Mexican workers? Cost increases for construction?
I would have thought you might like it since one of it's goals is to keep rural areas rural by decreasing urban sprawl like strip malls and huge suburban housing developments.
Posted by OldGrandDad (anonymous) on June 24, 2008 at 7:11 p.m. (Suggest removal)
destiny, Good for your son if he is anxious and willing to work. But from my experience, guys like that are hard to find. Honestly, I'd rather call them and have them tell me they are not interested than to have them tell me they will be there Monday morning at 7am and never show up and never call.
rushinghjr, I'm sure we have illegals in Natchez; Mexican and otherwise. But to post in the paper that a Mexican crew is illegal, without proof, could lead someone to bearing false witness.
EnKiKur, What is SmartCode? Is that anything like Comparable Worth ("the looniest idea since looney tunes")?
Posted by sammohon (anonymous) on June 24, 2008 at 7:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)
OGD it is a system of combining things like zoning, traffic and pedestian planning, economic development, historical assets, etc. into one codified source for communities and design professionals to plan for the growth of communities and coordinate with surrounding areas and other communities.
It's a way for everyone in the planning field to get on the same page and treat people the same when they apply for a zoning change or a historical permit, or if they have a farm next to an industrial area and a proposed factory may threaten it.
Of course, some folks will immediately exclaim that it is a Big Brother kind of thing, but it really isn't. It was developed here in the US, by a world renowned urban planner after a study of twenty years. It has only been adopted so far by about 20 to 30 communities ranging from Abbeville LA to Miami Fl.
In other words you know the rules going in regardless of where you are.
Posted by freedom42 (anonymous) on June 24, 2008 at 7:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)
natchezsouthside - were you speaking to me? I don't live in the Historical District, but if I did I would try to abide by the rules. Just as people who live in some communities have to abide by the Covenants of the subdivision. I was talking about our tax dollars and the SmartCode, whatever it actually is.
Posted by fire39212 (anonymous) on June 24, 2008 at 8:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)
What is this smart code????
Posted by sammohon (anonymous) on June 24, 2008 at 8:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)
fire...did you not read my explanation to OGD above?
Posted by OldGrandDad (anonymous) on June 24, 2008 at 8:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Sam, thanks. It looks like you don't think its a gloom and doom concept?
Posted by sammohon (anonymous) on June 24, 2008 at 9:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)
OGD...no, I think it's a way for otherwise, hopelessly confused and uncoordinated attempts at city planning can perhaps be done successfully and with an evenhandedness that hasn't heretofore been available on a case by case, city by city, town by town basis.
The fact that the obfuscation within that particular design field is manifestly obvious should make it clear to even EnKiKur that there couldn't possibly be an overarching master cabal behind it.
It was just one man who wanted to end the bureaucratic craziness suffocating his profession.
Posted by overthehill60 (anonymous) on June 24, 2008 at 9:42 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Everyone seems to be so upset about the illegal Mexicans, there are people from all over the world that mooch off us & don't have their citizenship. If they want to live in America the least they could do would be become citizens!
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 24, 2008 at 11:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Sam, as usual, for some unkown reason, perhaps lack of insight, fails to see the larger picture.
Andres Duany, a lone man transforming urban planning, whose plans and political ideology just happen to echo Agenda 21 transformaton policies for humanity and the environment, is like so many of the other "luminaries" connected with Agenda 21 who have something to sell:
"5. “A Convenient Remedy to the Inconvenient Truth” by John Norquist, president and CEO of the CNU.
Norquist makes a concise argument for new urbanism as an important solution to the threat of climate change.
6. “The Marketing of Sustainable Communities” by Andrés Duany, principal of DPZ and co-founder of the CNU."
On board with Al Gore who offers as inconvenient truth a bald-faced lie taught to children in school, the push of the "New Urbanism" is to make "human habitats" a right- a civil right, protected by law, meaning he wants his design theory to become law.
SmartCode is responsible for the delay in rebuilding the Gulf Coast and is known for doing such things as locating new facilities next to existing facilities that then become nuisances and so must be removed. We are familiar with this concept in the story of the local businessman who moved next door to the Under the Hill Saloon and then attempted to have the Saloon shut down because it was a nuisance.
SmartCode seeks to end urban sprawl. Urban sprawl happens because people don't like to live in cities; Agenda 21 and SmartCode says screw what the people want, we believe it is best they do live in cities with walkable neighborhoods and we will work to enact laws wherever we go to make that happen. Like all forms of socialism, it comes at a high cost to taxpayers and their liberty.
Posted by rushinghjr (anonymous) on June 25, 2008 at 12:20 a.m. (Suggest removal)
EnK- Is Ted Turner involved in the Smart Code concept. I understand that he may be?
Posted by frogprincenessntz (anonymous) on June 25, 2008 at 12:26 a.m. (Suggest removal)
EnKiKur...you are preaching to the some loony birds. Many are a bunch of ostriches who would rather bury their head in the sand until they get their tails chopped off. They will be the biggest squawkers after it is too late to change things.
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 25, 2008 at 12:31 a.m. (Suggest removal)
OldGrandDad, SmartCode is not a gloom and doom concept, not if you like global socialism.
On the contrary, it has been described as "the fire in the minds of men" by its promoters- you know, the Fire of Prometheus, who flew too close to the Sun.
Global socialism will usher in a new Age of Enlightenment where there will be no hungry, no poor, no homeless.
Sam delights in calling me a conspiracy theoritst, but take a look at this:
http://webapps01.un.org/dsd/partnerships...
Read all the forty chapters of Agenda 21, which Sam says he has but I doubt. and make your own decision. i can tell you what decision local politicians have made, and I bet you can guess too.
This is where those who wish to be informed should start:
http://www.un.org/esa/sustdev/documents/...
All others speak from ignorance.
To the specific point in question, Agenda 21 Chapter 7 addressing the human habitats Andres Duany designs:
http://habitat.igc.org/agenda21/a21-07.h...
It takes a lot of reading to keep up with world affairs. Reading isn't something much promoted in Natchez, as evidenced by the performance of the local schools. If this seems a harsh statement to readers of the Democrat, sorry but it is true. Just look at the award winning articles and editorials the Democrat publishes.
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 25, 2008 at 12:37 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Yes Ted Turner is Hudson. He donated 35 billion dollars to population control, one of the more wonderful and beautiful aspects of Sustainable Development.
You see, Hudson, the super-rich think because their own lives are shallow and incomplete, the poor, who have nothing or next to nothing, must be miserable. Yet, if you look at the documentaries of the poorest of the poor, except for the ones in the throes of starvation, you will find them still capable of smiling and having hope, of being gracious and good and generous to one another.
To end this perceived misery of the poor the super rich have been funding population control studies and programs for decades with the object being the elimination of the numbers of the poor. More than a trillion dollars has been spent on these efforts when that same money could have been spent developing the means for the poor to feed and provide for themselves.
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 25, 2008 at 1:25 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Sam, what this has to do with the Condos, Mexicans, and cost increases:
Condos are a way to get more people into a smaller space, ergo the compact city-human habitat idea.
Mexicans and other South Americans, about 30 million of them undocumented and therefore illegal immigrants, are flooding into this country because of US adherence to the regionalism policies of Agenda 21- "We are the World", "World Without Borders", "Global Village", etc.
Increased codes always lead to higher costs. I think you know that. You discussed LEEDS with me so you have to be aware. There are further increased costs associated with SmartGrowth and SmartCode due to cost of purchase, cost of implementation, rising urban real property costs and taxes, all requiring the use of more lawyers and accountants and architects and experts for this and for that, all who think they deserve top pay and to be able to hire illegal Mexicans to do their personal work for them.
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 25, 2008 at 2:14 a.m. (Suggest removal)
"There came a day of fire," Mr. Bush said of September 11, 2001. But in America's response in Afghanistan and Iraq, the president said, "we have lit a fire as well - a fire in the minds of men. It warms those who feel its power, it burns those who fight its progress, and one day this untamed fire of freedom will reach the darkest corners of our world."
The president's speech has a literary precedent. In Fyodor Dostoyevsky's novel "The Possessed," Governor von Lembke surveys a town set ablaze by revolutionaries. "The fire is in the minds of men," he says, "and not in the roofs of houses."
Mr. Bush said yesterday, "America's vital interests and our deepest beliefs are now one." One hears the echo of Franklin Delano Roosevelt, who said at his second inaugural, "We are beginning to wipe out the line that divides the practical from the ideal, and in so doing we are fashioning an instrument of unimagined power for the establishment of a morally better world."
http://www.nysun.com/editorials/fire-in-...
There may be some of you who recall that America was founded by men who considered themselves men of the Age of Enlightenment, or the Age of Reason. The founding principals sprang from ideas of the philosophers of that Enlightenment movement, which was primarily French and German. The Statue of Liberty, you may recall, was a gift from France.
What Bush is speaking about above is an expression of the ideal society Enlightenment thinkers dreamed of, and Bush is talking about America's role in spreading this "fire" aspect.
The fire in the minds of men is an old idea, it is known to the Hindus as kundalini and is the subject of the oldest known prayer in existence which goes:
BHUR BHUVA SVAHA
TAT SAVITUR VARENYAM
BHARGO DEVASYA DHEEMAHI
DHIYO YONAH PRACHODAYAT
This is a prayer to the Sun, seen as the source of all things. It is also a prayer to the Mother to unleash the power of the Sun in the form of Kundalini in the human nervous system.
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 25, 2008 at 2:56 a.m. (Suggest removal)
So what does this have to do with SmartCode, President Bush, and Agenda 21?
If you visit the Mississippi Department of Environmental Quality you will see that the Department is concerned with earth, air, and water. All magic practitioners and pagan followers know that what is missing in this is the fourth element, fire. Bush supplies that in his speech. Fire destroys and purifies, and sets the stage for recreation. That is why in the ancient days sacrifices were offered into fire. Death, or destruction of the temple, carries with it the possiblity of the rebuilding of the temple. That is why there are people who revere death.
Is President Bush aware of these things? Well, he is one of a very few select members of a German order of purification, the Skull and Bones Society, Chapter 322 of the Order of Death. 322 refers to several things, but one of them is the year of the death of Demosthenes, who was the inspiration for federalist promoters of the US Constitution and the promoters of the bloodbath French Revolution.
The prayer above represents the oldest idea of holy trinity. Agenda 21 promotes the three e's, the new idea of the trinity of the earth-based environmental religion. The above prayer is to Gayatri, Mother of life force, Savtri, daughter of the Sun and Mother of truth, and Saraswati, Mother of speech. All through Agenda 21 you will see that implementation calls for special attention to women. That is because Agenda 21 is earth based Solar worship of Feminine Deity.
I can't convince anyone of this who hasn't been exposed to these ideas for thirty years like I have, so I won't try. i will just say that political reality is far different than practicing Christians imagine it to be, even by those holding GW to be Christian. Is there a statue of Jesus in Washington? There is a statue of goddess Columbia though, and Liberty, and Justice. And many statues of other pagan deities.
The problem with these pagans and neo-pagans and Solar cultists is that they are no more enlightened than anyone else, no more enlightened than were the philosophers of the Age of Reason. Enlightenment is not a matter of political socialist philsosophy, which they have tried to make it, or a matter of beating drums and chanting and celebrating the Earth Mother.
Posted by OldGrandDad (anonymous) on June 25, 2008 at 2:57 a.m. (Suggest removal)
EnKiKur, are you suggesting that our local politicians have read all that stuff? And that they are acting on it?
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 25, 2008 at 3:16 a.m. (Suggest removal)
No, OldGrandDad, I am suggesting they are being led to do these things and they go along willingly because they haven't bothered to read the US Constitution and don't honor the guiding spirit contained within.
Agenda 21 is enacted through the grant system of the EDA, through all the federal departments, through non-governmental organziations.
Here is an example. In the story on earth day celebrations at Trinity the Garden Club did a presentaton on the new Compact Fluorscent Lighting we are all going to be forced to use. These bulbs are made only in China. They must be disposed of in hazardous waste sites as they contain mercury.
Having every light bulb used in the US made in China further levels differences in the US and Chinese economy, a goal of Agenda 21. They consume less energy, supposedly, needed to protect Mother Earth from humans.
Wherever the Garden Club got that idea, it wasn't locally. They probably think they are doing a good thing, going "green" which is the hip thing to do, but they don't know the larger picture at all.
A company in Houston recently dropped a case of those CFL bulbs and had to evacuate their warehouse while a hazmat team cleaned up the breakage. Cost of disposal was two thousand dollars.
I am saying that for short term gains local politicians are doing things against the long term interest of the public, and being guided in what to do and how to do it. That is how we got the Creek Authority. And all this is aimed at furthering Agenda 21.
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 25, 2008 at 3:29 a.m. (Suggest removal)
And I do know they attend conferences where this type of thing is preached:
http://www.seattle.gov/mayor/climate/PDF...
This is the kind of thing the supervisors and mayors are exposed to when they go off to those meetings in Jackson and Washington.
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 25, 2008 at 3:38 a.m. (Suggest removal)
More of it:
http://www.usmayors.org/usmayornewspaper...
The CFL bulbs are a big part of this year's conference.
And still more:
http://www.usmayors.org/
http://www.usmayors.org/climateprotectio...
Tupelo and Meridian are already climate partners. Natchez can't be far behind. We have been getting other aspects of related programs, like the Heritage designation.
Some mayors videos:
http://www.usmayors.org/climateprotectio...
Posted by OldGrandDad (anonymous) on June 25, 2008 at 3:59 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Oh well, thats all we need; to be dependent on China for basics like light bulbs.
No, I didn't think that our average local politician is a deep reader/thinker. You had me worried.
But you are still suggesting that they go to conferences and coventions and actually pay attention. I wouldn't have figured that either!
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 25, 2008 at 4:22 a.m. (Suggest removal)
OldGrandDad, they are, I do believe, given incentives to listen. The recent development around town all points to what I am saying. Watch the videos on that page I posted above, you will see. The bluff condos, the depot condos, the Franklin Street condos, all are part of this compact city scheme. Someone is listening.
Public/private partnerships are a part of the plan. We see that in the public building the convention center and hotel and turning it over to private management, based on legislation already written into place. The mayor had a room in the new hotel named after his wife.
Incentives come in two ways. Rewards such as awards, etc. and advanced knowledge of development allowing those in the know to get in on it. Other incentive is fostering of the belief that those who help implement will be in positions of power during and after the change. Greed and power are good incentivizers.
In addition, believers are sought out...those people who don't think much but believe any sugary scenario put before them. "Green is the new black". "Go Green". All that sort of silly nonsense, and all of it is based on a lie.
Look, we have on political party championing the green, earth aspect and another championing the fire aspect, but both support the other to some degree. When you really get into reading about this you will become amazed at how massive and how successful this Agenda 21 plan has been.
Do go and watch those videos on that page. You will see that what I am saying about local development is true. You will see socialism in action. The only possible way to pay for all this is through taxing income, air, and water, and that is what the plan is.
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 25, 2008 at 5:02 a.m. (Suggest removal)
For anyone who wants to know, the problem with earth weather isn't man. The problem is that the earth is tilted on its axis at 22 degrees to the Sun, and further, the earth wobbles on its axis. Summer and winter are caused by the earth being on different sides of the Sun in its annual orbit, and we all know how much colder it is in the winter than in the summer. Because the earth is tilted so there is a changing temperature difference on the earth that weather attempts to equalize.
The wobble of the earth on its axis adds another dimension to this weather change. Every 26000 years the earth goes through one big wobble, divided up into 12 sections of a little over 2100 years known as ages. Each of these ages has different weather because the tilt of the earth to the Sun changes in each age by a little bit.
The ages are marked by the major constellations. The last three are the Age of Taurus, the Age of Aries, and the Age of Pisces. Taurus marked the birth and death of Sumeria; the Sumerian myths were concerned with the Bull of Heaven. The next age, the Ram was mythologized, and that was the time of Babylon and Egypt; the Jews today still blow on a ram's horn. The next age was the age of the fish, or Pisces; Jesus was a fisher of men who told his disciples they would know him in the coming age by a man coming into the city gates bearing water. The constellation Pisces marks the next age, the one we are moving into now, and it is traditionally rendered as a man bearing a pitcher of water.
If you want to fix earth's weather, write to your congressmen and ask them to fund a program to pull the earth back straight up on its axis. That is the magnitude of the problem. Putting reindeer antlers on horse heads, worshipping golden bulls, blowing on ram's horns, burning children to Molech, all these things have been tried to no avail. Worshipping the Earth Mother by doing all the silly Agenda 21 things will have no more effect than all the things of the past.
Posted by mike8427 (anonymous) on June 25, 2008 at 7:52 a.m. (Suggest removal)
En - I am going to have to read up on this smart code, b/c its the first I have every heard about it. But if it does something to organize our community I would agree with it. I am for a organized structured society and I don't care if people get mad when they can't park junk cars in their yard in the middle of town.
Posted by cchat123 (anonymous) on June 25, 2008 at 8 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Will someone stand up and put a stop this insulting language regarding Hispanics and Mexican Americans.
I can feel the bigotry from the remarks "Mexicans."
Contrary to popular beliefs -Hispanics/Mexicans Americans are hardworking, dependable, takes pride in their work and to be exact loyal employees
Posted by OldGrandDad (anonymous) on June 25, 2008 at 8:10 a.m. (Suggest removal)
cchat123, I believe the remarks were concerning people with Mexican citizenship. Like calling people from France "French". I really don't see "Mexican" as a bad word. But I do take exception to someone assuming that all Mexicans are in the US illegally. Thats not true. Just most of 'em.
EnKiKur, I'll have to wait until I'm home to look at the video. I'll bookmark 'em.
Not long back it was revealed that Mars and Jupiter were also experiencing a warming trend. I wonder how Al Gore blames us for THAT?
Posted by mike8427 (anonymous) on June 25, 2008 at 8:49 a.m. (Suggest removal)
EnKik - I did see that you tube clip on CFL's, and the sad thing isn't that they are made in china. The sad thing is American industry has mad NO steps forward in production of modern electronics. The only reason we are still making incandescent bulbs is b/c our factories were created to build them 60 years ago. We have made NO steps forward in updating our industrial base.
When the CFl's were new to the market there were a few made in the US, I know b/c I bought one and it still works and its almost 10 years old. When it came time to mass production, the manufacturer knew the US industrial base was dying so the production plants were put in China.
Posted by rushinghjr (anonymous) on June 25, 2008 at 9:35 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Mike8427-Let them park the junk cars next to your residence and you can sleep with them also!
Posted by rushinghjr (anonymous) on June 25, 2008 at 9:39 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Cchat123- I agree with you, your people are some of the best employees around, but you just have to be so careful with their "status".
Posted by mike8427 (anonymous) on June 25, 2008 at 9:40 a.m. (Suggest removal)
rushing - Did you understand what I just said? I am AGAINST people stacking junk in the middle of neighborhoods. Is that clear for you? If Somebody starts piling debris in the yard next to my house, I am going to help them clean it up with some gas and matches.
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 25, 2008 at 11:01 a.m. (Suggest removal)
cchat123, Mexicans are people from Mexico. How do you see something insulting in that? If they are here illegally, then they are illegal immigrants, period.
Also, many of both the legal and illegals have organized under LaRaza, which means The Race, which is a racist, socialist organziation. They are here for Reconquista, which is a lie as well, since they never possessed the southwest to begin with.
One of the reasons they are here in such numbers is that for at least the past two decades the Ford Foundation has been passing out materials in schools south of the border promoting the idea of Reconquista.
Another reason they are here is they are fleeing corruption in their own countries and bringing it up here with them. The Mexico City kidnappings and car bombings have moved to Dallas-Ft. Worth, and MS 13 roams far and wide.
I don't care if they are god fearing and hard working, if they are here illegally and if they are members of organizations like LaRaza they should be arrested and sent back south. LaRaza is planning violent demonstrations for the DNC this year and have already been demonstrating in Denver.
LaRaza is the group that has been taking down American flags and putting Mexican flags up in their place. They are proud to be Mexicans and want you to know it, and they want you to be scared of them.
Posted by freedom42 (anonymous) on June 25, 2008 at 11:56 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Enk, just out of curiosity, how in the world do you find out about all of this? I would like to be more informed, but have no idea where to start.
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 25, 2008 at 12:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I listen to the news and then look up the things they talk about on there. Usually the news leaves all the good stuff out, because mostly the mainstream media functions to promote various programs the people wouldn't go for if it weren't presented in "this is something to be happy about" fashion.
Like, did you know there have been incursions by the Mexican army across the US border? Didn't hear that on ABC, CBS, or NBC did you? Or that the Mexican army is providing protection for drug and human smugglers. Or that the drug cartels have set up a whole system of cell towers along the border that are staffed with watchmen so they can monitor US Immigrations activities. If you lived in Texas you would know about a lot of this, or if you lived in Arizona, New Mexico, or California.
I also travel through the south so I get to hear different radio stations and hosts, and that is a good source of news. I listen to both right and left wing hosts, when I can stand it, but the main thing is to just listen and then look up the things that get mentioned.
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 25, 2008 at 12:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I sent you an email with some info freedom.
Posted by freedom42 (anonymous) on June 25, 2008 at 12:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Actually I did know about the Mexican army thing because my daughter lives in Texas and she and her husband are, well, like us - curious minds need to know about this sort of stuff. But you are right, never have heard anything on any news station about it.
Posted by noneya (anonymous) on June 25, 2008 at 12:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)
EnKiKur: This is another one to watch:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=e-LOtKIIKcg
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 25, 2008 at 1:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)
hehe..yes, that is funny noneya. Like so much of the green movement the CFL bulbs are just silly.
What would make sense, especially for our area, would be for some of the billions of dollars being spent on nonsense to be spent on developing low cost solar panels for individual homes. It just seems the really sensible things don't get proposed, but the outrageous ones do.
The first time the term sustainable development was used was in 1938 at the Fourth World Socialist Congress. As early as then the possibility of using the environment as the framework for world socialism was discussed. It does take a lot of reading to understand how all this came to be, but it is true.
Here is a good video on SD:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=...
Posted by Tris (anonymous) on June 25, 2008 at 4:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Why has this turned into a chat room between a few people. I thought that this was a place to leave comments about an article. It seems we have a few people who think it is a space to try to convince everyone that they know everything about everything. Why don't those of you who want to try to convince each other you are smarter just email each other?
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 25, 2008 at 4:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)
If you have something to say, say it Tris. All this is on the topic. Are you against free speech?
Posted by mike8427 (anonymous) on June 25, 2008 at 5:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Noneya - Do you know all fluorescent fixtures in commerical and residental buildings have mercury in the ballasts also and require the same cleanup procedures. The CFL isn't different from other fluorescent fixtures, they all have mercury. People have just woken up to this reality now that they have become available in the CFL.
Posted by sammohon (anonymous) on June 25, 2008 at 6:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Enk...again, I thought you might be happy about keeping rural areas rural, particularly Church Hill, and urban areas urban by enticing those who CHOOSE to live in condos to do so...how is it socialist to want to live in an urban area where amenities are easier to obtain...seems to me there is something very capitalistic about owning your own home regardless of whether it is in the country, a suburb, or in a city condo.
I understand that some tree huggers want to limit the growth of urban/suburban sprawl...heck, I'm a conservative and I want to limit urban/suburban sprawl, but if someone wants to live in the city I don't see it as a socialist encroachment.
Posted by sammohon (anonymous) on June 25, 2008 at 7:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)
EnK...SmartCode has nothing to do with world socialism...unless you want to define socialists as people who want to improve the quality of life in their communities.
For your edification, Prometheus stole fire from the gods and gave it to man, Icarus was the one who flew too close to the sun...maybe you should be reading up on Greek mythology rather than the world conspiracy stuff you espouse.
Even if there was a world conspiracy there would never be enough people who could or would agree to go along with it...it is against the nature of man...the proof is in these blogs and commentaries. Proposed utopias can never exist because man is imperfect and thus anathema to utopian ideals.
Enk...I thought we were becoming somewhat collegial, but now you have impuned my integrity...I have read ALL of the chapters of Agenda 21 AS I TOLD YOU...I have also read all of the bill creating the St. Catherine Utility Authority that you constantly rail about...while there are articles in both that seem troubling, as has been proven in the past, the actual putting into practice of either of them is far different than the written ideal...you may freely doubt my reading comprehension, but SIR, DO NOT CALL ME A LIAR!
Posted by lilredhead (anonymous) on June 25, 2008 at 7:55 p.m. (Suggest removal)
We are not going to waste our money on CFL lighting. We are more concerned with the money saving aspect than the "global warming". Before anyone jumps on me for saying that here is a link to the lighting we have chosen to use in our home.
http://www.ccrane.com/lights/led-light-b...
While they are more expensive than filament bulbs and CFL's in the long run they will pay for themselves. They actually use less energy that CFL's which helps the pocket book and the environment. They also are of no more danger than a filament bulb if broken. Here is another link that compare the different bulbs.
http://www.productdose.com/article.php?a...
There are many more sites out there with more info so I am still researching!
Posted by freedom42 (anonymous) on June 25, 2008 at 9:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)
lilredhead, I think the deal is that there has been a law passed that by 2014, everyone will have to use CFL's. We will have no choice in what we use. Clearly an infringement on individual rights.
Posted by lilredhead (anonymous) on June 25, 2008 at 9:37 p.m. (Suggest removal)
freedom you are right. I can't believe they want to tell us what kind of light bulbs to us! Those CFL's are going to make this an ugly world. For example, I bought some to put in the bathroom and thought the light was funny looking. Well I went about my business putting on my makeup and went to meet my mom. She nearly fell out when I walked in the door. She said what is the matter with your face!? I looked at myself and I looked like a two dollar hooker! My blush was sooooo dark and my eyeshadow was a mess! Needless to say when I got home I changed those bulbs.
Posted by OldGrandDad (anonymous) on June 25, 2008 at 9:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Sam, I propose that you and Marty have a sandbar duel. I'll advertise and sell tickets.
Posted by freedom42 (anonymous) on June 25, 2008 at 10:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I'll be Marty's second and hold his coat. My moneys on him.
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 25, 2008 at 10:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Sam, pardon me for confusing Prometheus and Icarus. Not much diifference in the stories though when one considers what the fire is and why stealing it and getting too close to it are both dangerous. I never cared much for Greek mythology and both of those are solar myths, and what I was speaking of was solar myths. But, granted, I did make an error, two actually, and you have my permission to gloat. I also said the coming age is the age of Pisces, when it is the age of Aquarius.
Andres Duany is himself a socialist, so I reckon any program started by a socialist would also be socialist. He is just one more person using a lie to further his own belief in social agenda and to garner fame and fortune for himself.
Duany has been in the thick of this movement from the beginning. One of the aims of the environmental movement is the abolition of private property, so I have to call him a socialist and to disagree with him, in spite of whatever that might mean for Church Hill.
Here is a map of the Wildlands Project, blow it up with the page tool to have a good look. All human activity was to be restricted from the red areas and human activity in the yellow areas was to be highly restricted. The black areas are where humans were to be allowed in Duany's habitats. This almost got through congress in 1996 except for the work of Dr. Micheal Coffman but work on creating the Wildlands Project continues today.
http://www.citizenreviewonline.org/speci...
http://www.citizenreviewonline.org/speci...
Lastly, the reason I doubted your reading of the entire Agenda 21 is your inablitly to see it in action around you. About whether or not there is a world plan and enough people to put it in place, you continue to be wrong about that. The plan is all through the various cabinet departments, in states, counties, and cities and towns around the US and other nations.
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 25, 2008 at 10:45 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Oh yeah, Sam, I also feel impugned every time you try to infer that I am a conspiracy theorist. I wasn't going to mention it, but I think that is a form of argument that is beneath you.
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 25, 2008 at 10:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Also lastly, I have no problem with people wanting to live in 400,000 dollar condos in the city. What I do have a problem with is conservation groups and water authorities that force people out of rural areas and into those cities.
Duany has some good ideas for building cities and I would go along with what he does were it not for socialist ideology and his connection to the green socialists.
Rights come from God and nature, not government. Socialists have a hard time with that.
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 26, 2008 at 1:12 a.m. (Suggest removal)
To see a Mississippi project other than the rebuilding of the Katrina Zone on the Gulf Coast being done by Duany Plater-Zyberk, creators of Smartcode, have a look at Lost Rabbit:
http://www.dpz.com/project.aspx?Project_...
http://www.dpz.com/news.aspx
This is an example of a totally planned sustainable development community. Have a look and tell me if you think you could ever afford to live there. You might be able to squeeze into one of the 250,000 dollar less than 1000 sq ft units in the Portassippi part of the project, if you have good credit; if so you can you can then walk to your job as waiter, waitress, or bussboy in your mixed use neighborhood so you won't have to waste money on a car.
It would be a very nice place to live, if you could afford it. If the sounds of the motoboats and bacchanalia of the rich offend you, don't worry, you'll be separated from all that distraction by an intervening buffer of upscale living quarters and a lake system.
Andres Duany and his wife Elizabeth Plater Zyberk both got their architectural degrees from Yale. As such luminaries they live on a different plane of existence than the rest of us so know best how we should live and where. To see what these gods among us look and act like, watch:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=...
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 26, 2008 at 2:04 a.m. (Suggest removal)
And now, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, with respect for the feelings of the defense, I present my chief witness in the case against Smartcode. I present Andres Duany who has agreed to confess his socialist ideology, his disdain for the American middle class, his intention to use New Urbanization to communicate socialist ideals to them, his belief that the poor are easy to placate because they have no choice, the rich are marvelous, and his intention to claim ever more territory on behalf of the movement supporting him. No need to swear Mr. Duany in, Your Honor, as his godliness is proof enough of his veracity:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=...
It is also my case, members of the jury, that the ideas expressed by Mr. Duany are a recapitulation of the idyllic Platonic Republic progarm of a two class system of rule of the masses by a Guardian class, and that Mr. Duany sees himself as one of these Guardians.
I ask the jury to declare me winner of this second series of the Mohon-Ellerbe debates as I have already declared myself winner in the absence of any forthcoming overwhelming rebuttal by the defense, Mr. Mohon.
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 26, 2008 at 3:43 a.m. (Suggest removal)
However, in deference to the opposing counsel, I submit to the members of the jury the following statements. Mr. Mohon has correctly described the new convention hotel as hideous and correctly assessed that it would have been better to build the center in conjunction with the existing Eola Hotel; I will present a witness for this viewpoint as well.
In addition, the lack of open discussion between the political elite of Natchez and the electorate, combined with lack of knowledge of compatible planning concepts perhaps modified by other factors such as hope for personal gain in championing a particular project over others more suitable to the character of Natchez is leading to the destruction of charm of a once charming town.
Favoring the Worley Brown project over the mixed use plan that would have made the same space available to a greater number of people and would have been more in keeping with the character of Natchez is a travesty based on lack of a comprehensive plan.
Granting special exceptions by ordinance to individual corporate interests such as allowing the convention hotel to build so high, and waiving permit fees to Grand Soleil are both policies not in the public interest and not in the interest of existing business.
The genius of my star witness on these points, also Mr. Duany, should not be questioned even though his views on previously mentioned points should be.
What has not happened in Natchez, or in Vidalia, is the inclusion of the taxpaying public funding in subsidy so much of the new development; what has not happened is any sort of cohesive planning taken part in by the general public. The result of all these de facto policies of unrevealed development will lead to failed development, and I present Mr. Duany's testimony on these points, and it is highly recommended that any local person considering him or herself a leader view this testimony:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=...
It is not necessary to institute soviet style boards and commissions or to hide development intentions from the public; it is not necessary to subvert our constitutional government to have economic development. What is necessary is to include the electorate in decision making processes well in advance of making decisions.
Posted by humorme (anonymous) on June 26, 2008 at 11:28 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Mexican food gives me the Sh**s
Posted by freedom42 (anonymous) on June 26, 2008 at 2:37 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Well EnKiKur, we don't even really elect the President, why should the "government" deem us intelligent enough to decide what to do with our own cities? Have you ever watched a cow herd coming in to be fed? One cow starts and they all follow. They think there will be something good at the end, but one day they find themselves loaded on a truck headed for the slaughter house, not even knowing how they got there. However there are always a few "mavricks" who escape the herd and go their own way.
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 26, 2008 at 5:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Fun with Miami 21, the Duany Plater-Zyberk plan for Miami- this time, pay per drive, like pay per view tv:
http://www.congestionpricingcentral.org/...
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 26, 2008 at 5:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)
To the question "What should be coded in a city?" Duany answers "Everything."
Do you wonder why it is taking so long to rebuild New Orleans? It takes time to code everything.
What is the cause of crime? "Concentration of poverty" says Duany. Not poverty itself, but concentrations of it. Do you wonder why residents of the 9th Ward claim they are being kept out of the city? You don't have to look very far to find the answer to that.
According to Duany, under normal circumstances it takes 20 years for a city to "molt", to shed its old skin and grow a new one; in case of a hurricane like Katrina he says molting and renewal takes only five years.
Posted by sammohon (anonymous) on June 26, 2008 at 10:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)
EnK...why thank you very much for the URL:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=......
It was a wonderfully educational experience to see and hear Mr. Duany...it's no wonder he's considered one of the top architects in the world, particularly with such a pragmatic approach that spares no one...not environmentalists or developers.
He certainly doesn't sound like he is socialist, in fact, his ideas blend very nicely to the realism of our capitalist democracy, and he reminded everyone that we are a democratic and capitalistic society several times.
After analysis, his proposals are very attractive to an investor who wants to make sure his investment isn't damaged by a loose cannon next door, to a home owner who wants security in their neighborhood's character, to a city which is trying to deal with zoning and other issues on a piece meal basis that statisfies no one.
He never once mentioned your key words...Agenda 21 or sustainable development or sustainable design...in fact, to some degree he took issue with the environmentalist world wide agenda...sounded like a lot of common sense based on empirical observation to me.
I should say though, for the uneducated in the fields of urban design, architecture, landscape architecture and engineering, his terminology is geared towards us, but so is his critique...please watch this video from start to finish in order to understand it...if you stop before the end you will not know what the proposals (and that's all they are) are about.
Posted by sammohon (anonymous) on June 26, 2008 at 10:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)
EnK...your filibustering doesn't make the "world crashing down" arguments valid...you're kinda like my wife...if I take care of one worry another is invented to take it's place...you can't control anyone, but yourself...so why don't you do that?
Posted by sammohon (anonymous) on June 26, 2008 at 10:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Humorme...I love mexican food...but chinese does the same to me...what's your point?...bowel problem?
Posted by sammohon (anonymous) on June 26, 2008 at 10:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Duany expicitly ridiculed LEEDS and fired a shot over the bow of the replacement of LEEDS with the newer version...and I agree, it's government overstepping, but it is the law now...we should vote against those who imposed it and repeal it.
Duany's approach is simply common sense, not enviro-terrorism with communistic aims, which is what you insinuate mostly and sometimes say outright...face it, you don't like other people or having to live with them in an accomodating, compromising way.
The problem is that you think you are far smarter, and therefore, more valuable than the rest of us. That's precisely the attitude of the fascists and socialists that you claim we're becoming.
I AM an architect, and I DO look for opportunities to make life better for my clients and the public...I do appreciate and respect nature, but I'm not socialist or fascist and I resent your characterisation that those of us, particularly the professionals you mentioned in a previous blather, who do care about the built environment or the natural one are by definition socialists.
Posted by sammohon (anonymous) on June 26, 2008 at 10:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)
EnK...we codify laws, regulations, ordinances...even the Bible is a codex of laws, mythologies, histories, parables, anecdotes, and every other literary device known to man...the point being that codes are rules for getting along with one another and ensuring, to the best extent we can, public health, safety and welfare.
This is not a case of a set of laws being handed down...if a community CHOOSES to adopt SmartCode the are not bound by anything other than their last vote...they are also able to choose how and to what extent they enact it...it is customized to the community.
Posted by sammohon (anonymous) on June 26, 2008 at 10:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)
freedom42...Hold Enk's coat, just don't stand behind him...if you do you will get wounded...LOL.
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 27, 2008 at 12:18 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Sam, you always hear only what you want to hear. What Duany said in regard to environmentalists is that they must consider humans as a species as well, and that they need to stop focusing their efforts on rural efforts and bring them into the city as well.
Duany is the Bill Clinton of the green socialists. He is the consensus. Duany does indeed promote capitalism, but only for the elite. That is the Platonic ideal and it is the one leg fascism stands on, the other being socialism for the masses.
Duany clearly said the only reason he gives credence to traditional architecture is as a tool to communicate his ideas to the American middle class, whom he says are the cause of global warming. That is ridiculous, and it is also his admittance of his belief in Agenda 21.
If you go to his website, and if you watch more of his speeches, and if you examine you will discover that he is totally about Agenda 21. SmartGrowth, which comes from applying SmartCode, is the new name for Sustainable Development which was the popular name for Agenda 21.
HIs Miami program is called Miami 21. Miami for the 21at Century.
When it comes to community choice about Agenda 21, or SmarthGrowth there is not much of it. These Disney-like villages Duany draws are enough to convince most people. As an architect I am very surprised you aren't aware of the what has been happening in New Orleans.
You aren't familiar enough with the new language of socialism to see it Sam, that is the only reason you don't agree with me. But then, you aren't familiar with the old language of socialism either. You say you are a conservative yet your defense is always of the progressive.
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 27, 2008 at 12:40 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Duany is a Cuban, born a Communist. He is also Latin, and as you should have noticed is a big fan of Rome. In the beginning in Rome there were two kinds of law, one for the people and one for the rulers. Then, over time that became more egalitarian with changes proposed by the Comitia Centuriata of Servius Tullius:
"The object of the legislation of Servius Tullius was to unite the different elements of which the Roman people consisted, into one great political body, in which power and influence were to be determined by property and age. For this purpose, he divided, in his census, the whole body of Roman citizens into six property classes, and 193 centuriae (λόχοι) or votes, from which the assemblies in which the people gave their votes were called comitia centuriata. [Census.] By this means, Servius brought about an amalgamation of timocracy and aristocracy; and the poor citizens, though they met their wealthier brethren on a footing of equality, yet were unable to exercise any great influence upon public affairs, for the wealthier classes voted first, and if they agreed among themselves, they formed a majority before the poorer classes would be called upon to vote at all."-Leonhard Schmitz, Rector High School Edinburgh
You don't listen closely enough or read closely enough to assimilate all the information contained in speeches and articles Sam.
Duany even uses the word Guardain three times in the long video. He alludes to it many times, and speaks well of the "elite" system in Canada.
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 27, 2008 at 12:58 a.m. (Suggest removal)
As a fan of Rome and the two class system of government, Duany is only resorting to the old deception of democracy being used as a pacifier for the people. On the plane of the patricii the common people are something merely to be managed.
Far from even coming close to destroying my arguments Sam, you only further highlight your own inability to understand them. You have the intelligence to but you are bound by ego and dismiss what you are ignorant of as not being and do not trouble yourself to learn what is needed to respond intelligently.
Duany sees himself as being of the Guardain class of Plato, of the patricii of Rome. That is common enough among Yale graduates whose many notables occupy positions of world power. Yale is one of the modern day grooming grounds of such people.
Fascism was born in Rome, that is where the symbol of the fascii comes from. That symbol, the two large pillars standing behind the podium in the House of Representatives seen clearly every time the State of the Union address is given, exemplifies the Platonic Republic; "From many, One, under One Rule".
Now that I am warmed up, I will decide whether or not to take your arguments one by one and destroy them before the jury, or whether to save myself the time and you the humiliation of such a display. In this I am not being elitist, or fascist, or socialist, I am simply giving you notice that as much as you believe that contradiction and marginilization are valid forms of argument, they don't stand up against real evidence of fact.
Naturally you will not be taken as the judge of the winner of our debate, but the readers will.
I openly acknowledge the ingenuity of Duany's designs and would myself design cities in a similar fashion if the world were my playground. The world does not belong to any one man, or any one group though, and all should not be subject to the ideology of such an individual or group, no matter how brilliant.
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 27, 2008 at 2:42 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Members of the jury, as the counsel for the defence requests further education in his specialty, I undertake to answer some of his claims made before you:
"He never once mentioned your key words...Agenda 21 or sustainable development or sustainable design...in fact, to some degree he took issue with the environmentalist world wide agenda...."
My answer to this statement comes from the website of DPZ, the company owned by Duany and his wife Plater-Zyberk, from the page which lists their speaking engagements:
http://www.dpz.com/services_lectures.htm...
Some evidence contray to Mr. Mohon's claims, lectures, forums and panels at which DPZ spoke, which are found there:
Forum on Community Development: Sustainable Development Project, La Paz Baja, CA Sur, NAFTA 2002 U.S. & Mexico: A Vital Partnership, Washington, DC
Nov. 30: Andrés Duany participates on the panel "Sustainable Urbanism" and lectures on "Marketing Ourselves" at the Green Council, at The Athenaeum, Alexandria, VA.
Sept. 10: Lecture by Andrés Duany, "Climate and People: Process as Design Tool" at the Sustainable Urban Design Conference, Lund University, Sweden
May 2: Lecture by Andrés Duany, "SmartCodes - Smart Communities" at the Building a Future: Sustainable Urbanism & Green Design Conference, Cincinnati, OH.
Jan. 26: Elizabeth Plater-Zyberk delivers the welcome address and moderates the "Building Sustainability Today" panel at the "Under the Sun: Sustainable Innovations and Traditions" symposium" at the at the University of Miami School of Architecture, Coral Gables, FL
And so on, and so forth ladies and gentlemen.
Further, I ask the jury to consider that Mr. Duany serves as advisor to the Trust for Sustainable Development:
"The Trust for Sustainable Development's Board of Advisors is an international pool of experts whose combined expertise assists the Trust in obtaining the highest practical standards of sustainable development. The guidance and information provided by these distinguished, practicing professionals is considered one of the most valuable resources available to the Trust.
Andres Duany
Mr. Duany is America's best known town planner, and has completed over three hundred town plans including plans for the New Towns of Seaside, FL which was referred to by TIME magazine as “the most astounding design achievement of its era”, Kentlands, Bamberton and Civano, as well as developing new master plans for existing city centers in Trenton, Providence and Los Angeles among others."
http://www.tsd.ca/who_we_are/board.html
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 27, 2008 at 2:49 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I rest my case at this point Your Honor, unless Mr. Mohon wishes to continue. As usual, if he desires to retire from the field of battle I will take that as surrender; at any case I await his surrender or next salvo.
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 27, 2008 at 3:10 a.m. (Suggest removal)
“We have legislators who think it their duty only to listen to the people instead of becoming expert on the subjects which they must decide upon.”
---Andres Duany
"In politics we presume that everyone who knows how to get votes knows how to administer a city or a state. When we are ill...we do not ask for the handsomest physician, or the most eloquent one."
---Plato
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 27, 2008 at 3:36 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I will add, Sam, that Andres Duany is one of a very few members of a select group, the INTBAU College of Traditional Practitioners whose patron is the Prince of Wales, Charles.
Charles was with George H. W. Bush offshore of Rio on Charles' yacht when Bush signed the Rio Accords which created Agenda 21.
If you have any interest at all in truth, and not just interest n what you wish to believe, please read this speech by Charles on Agenda 21. INTBAU is a foundation for implementing Agenda 21. Charles is patron of Duany:
http://www.intbau.org/ictp/Duany.htm
What exactly is a traditional practitioner? I know, but I bet you don't have a clue. I'll give you one though: practitioner of what? Just how do you get into Royal Patronage? I'll leave that to each to answer on his own.
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 27, 2008 at 3:41 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Excuse me, Charles on Agenda 21:
http://www.princeofwales.gov.uk/speeches...
Posted by sammohon (anonymous) on June 27, 2008 at 9:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)
EnK...NO...I hear what I hear...not what you decide I need to hear...I don't make up stuff and lace together strands that aren't associated, or if they are, only tenuously, and as if that weren't enough, you pull in Hindu mystisicism and poetry?
Jeez, EnK...you're as bad, or maybe even worse, than the people you rail against, in your histrionics and attempts to stamp out the ability of others to espouse their opinions, by a shear flood of BS gleaned from many questionable sources, if they happen to be contrary to yours...that my friend is both a fascist and communist tactic.
If the world was left to you, and thank God it's not, mankind would probably still be in the stone age, except that the clan lifestyle would probably go against your myopic sense of independence.
Yes, Mr. Duany was born in Cuba, that doesn't make him a communist or a socialist. He is an architect. In our society, for an architect to survive financially he has to be a pretty adept capitalist, particularly to reach the level of success he has. Your comments about SmartCode have been both unfair and distorted.
One other thing...why does an article about a condo, progress in Natchez, have to become a constitutional crisis for you? You have a paranoia that is amazing.
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 27, 2008 at 11:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)
My proof that Duany is a member in good standing of Agenda 21 comes from his website; is that one of my questionable sources? My proof that Prince Charles is his patron comes from Charles' website; is that site questionable as well?
I said Duany was born a communist, and he was. I say he is a socialist now, and he is. I know that because of the way he uses language, how he refers to himself, and because of his exclusive associations with socialists.
Fascism and communism are not tactics. They are economic systems. You are caught up in popular paradigms that conceal the real meaning of things.
The British family who are his patrons have documented historical links with fascism, and still promote the same economic system. Truth is just truth.
I have no paranoia. I am not afraid of socialists, or fascists, I have friends who are both. I just don't agree with them.
As to the Hindu mysticism, it and other traditional practices are favored by the authors of Agenda 21 over Chrisitanity, Judaism, and Islam. The authors of Agenda 21 say that monotheism is the root cause of the rise of the middle class and the middle class is responsible for global warming. And they are right, monotheism is responsible for the middle class. Without it we would still be peasants serving the lords and ladies of London, the British Empire would still span the world.
None of this is tenuously tied together. The connections are firm and real, you just have to have time to learn why.
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 27, 2008 at 11:42 p.m. (Suggest removal)
And, as before, it was you who decided to attack and mock me with your first post on this thread. I don't advise doing that because while I rarely attack others, I will do so if attacked. And, I don't write something unless I have some evidence to back it up. In the case of Duany I had tons of evidence. So, if you mock me, expect to be mocked back and expect me to be as brutal as I can be; I think that is the political approach you see as desirable in world affairs so you should find it just as desirable in more local ones.
You would fare better if you would leave off the personal attacks and characterizations and take some small point of mine you can find evidence against and let us discuss that point. We both would gain. Opinions are fine and wanted but they should consist of more than a repetition of what Rush or Shawn said on their show yesterday or today.
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 28, 2008 at 12:10 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Now, last point, on the fire reference and traditional pagan practices.
There is a type of hat known as the phrygian cap that is red and has been worn by revolutionaries the world over. It symbolizes the fire of kundalini, the sacrificial fire of purification and renewal.
Neo-cons are revolutionaries. They use the language and symbols of revolutionaries. Hinduism, and Kaballah, and Islamic and Christian mysticism all revere the fire as do the other pagan religions. The fire of kundalini is revered because once its purification is complete in a person that person reflects the compassionate qualities of an enlightened person. Revolutionaries, on the other hand, while often engaging in occult practices, see not the compassion of Christ but the bloodlust of Kali.
How often does Bush, and have others, called slain soldiers a sacrifice? There is a literal as well as a figurative meaning to the word. The war we are engaged in is offering sacrifices to a bloody pagan god whom the revolutionaries hope will imbue them with power. When Bush speaks of fire in the minds of men he knows full well what he is talking about. Any mystery adept knows as well.
Here is a for instance for you, to close with:
The war in Iraq began with a campaing of Shock and Awe.
The Jewish idea of the feminine aspect of God, Gayatri in Hindu, is Shekhinah and the pronunciation is very close to Shock and Awe. Shekhinah is also associated with a pillar of fire, and with the burning bush, and with other fire. While the idea of the feminine aspect of God should be one of loveliness and compassion it can be used in another way entirely.
Given our relationship with Israel I find it very unlikely that the choice of name for the attack on Iraq is a coincidence.
Kundalini and Shekhinah are the same thing. So there you go. Don't only accuse the Iraqis and Iranians of fanatical beliefs.
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