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photo by Ben Hillyer
Natchez Alderwoman Joyce Arceneaux-Mathis discusses the future of the Natchez-Adams County Economic Development Authority with the Adams County Board of Supervisors during a joint meeting of city and county leaders Monday.
City, county, EDA gather to debate funding
Published Tuesday, February 3, 2009
NATCHEZ — A four-hour meeting and comments from 14 local leaders left Adams County Supervisors wondering if their previous decision to suspend funding to the Economic Development Authority is even legal.
But the board wasn’t ready to vote again, and the three supervisors who originally voted to cut funding weren’t giving up their ground yet.
In a joint meeting of the board of aldermen, the board of supervisors and the EDA board Monday, Alderman Dan Dillard brought up House bill 1847 — the legislation that governs the EDA.
“I think we would all be better off if we looked at the bill we have already have in place,” Dillard said.
The legislation, he said, mandates that the city and county boards meet every August to discuss EDA funding. No such meeting has occurred in recent years.
“I’m new to the process, but if all of you guys have been to all of these meetings and you’ve been here as many years as you have, you should have been here every August meeting to discuss the efforts you were going to put together,” Dillard said.
Dillard went on to read from the legislation that once funding for the EDA is set for the fiscal year, it cannot be changed.
“For anyone to think that they can withhold funds, I think they would be in dereliction of their duties,” he said. “You can do it, but the consequences would be that possibly you are in violation of your oath to uphold the laws of the State of Mississippi.
“Before you jump off into some deep water here and find out that the hole is deeper than you think it is, I think we need to look at this.”
Last month, the supervisors voted 3-2 to suspend its funding to the EDA.
The supervisors supply $175,000 to the EDA, while the aldermen supply $100,000.
Dillard, along with the other city alderman, spoke in favor of the EDA’s work and expressed concern over the supervisor’s recent decision.
Supervisors President Henry Watts said if the legislation mandates that the supervisors pay, that’s what they’ll do.
He said County Attorney Bobby Cox is waiting to hear the Mississippi Attorney General’s opinion on the matter.
Watts and supervisors Mike Lazarus and S.E. “Spanky” Felter voted to suspend the EDA funding.
Watts said his decision was based on finances.
“This whole issue is, quite frankly, about money,” Watts said.
In a shaky economy, the county has to make cuts, Watts said.
Lazarus said the EDA issue wasn’t about money, but about effectiveness.
Lazarus summed up his argument by citing former EDA board member Vidal Davis’ reason for resigning a few months ago.
At the time, Davis said it was disorganization and a lack of communication among the board members.
Lazarus said the communication problems exist to this day.
“I’m sorry it’s come out like this, but it’s got to be resolved,” he said.
Watts also argued that the city and county could do what the EDA does.
Many developments the EDA has lobbied for have either not panned out or have cost the taxpayers money, he said.
Watts mentioned the proposed biofuel plant John Rivera wanted to establish at the port. Rivera is now tied up in a lawsuit for allegedly swindling an investor and his Natchez plant doesn’t exist.
EDA officials have said they were not involved in Rivera’s locating in Adams County.
Watts also pointed to collection agency KinardMichael Baker Co., an engineering company that never hired any employees and left town a few months after coming, with county computers in tow.
Metal fabrication plant Venco, of Baton Rouge, broke ground on a facility in the port area in 2004. The EDA worked with the company, Watts said. The $1.8 million project that was supposed to create 50 jobs vanished soon after.
Successful developments — like Rentech and Corrections Corporation of America — were not handled entirely by the EDA, he said.
Watts said when Rentech was searching for a site, the EDA pushed Rentech to the Belwood property, as the EDA was pursuing another developer for the International Paper Company site.
Businessman Frank Peoples was interested in turning the IP site into a power plant, but later died before the project could come to fruition.
Only then did the EDA suggest the IP site, Watts said.
He said mainly the city and county were responsible in getting CCA and Rentech.
Watts also brought up an alleged personality conflict between former EDA Director Jeff Rowell and EDA Chairman Woody Allen.
Watts pointed out that the EDA board did not allow Rowell, who recently left his position to pursue other ventures, do his job.
Watts said Rowell said he was routinely left out of the Rentech deal.
“He would say he knows nothing about the project and is left out of the loop,” Watts said.
Allen — who was called before the supervisors to speak — said when Rentech was scouting out Adams County, there was no executive director in place, so he took the reins.
He also said Rowell was incapable of doing his job.
“If he could do his job, he would have been doing his job,” Allen said.
Thomas “Boo” Campbell said now that Rowell is gone, there shouldn’t be a problem.
“(Rowell and Allen) didn’t get along. That’s a fact. Everybody on this board knows that,” Campbell said. “But that’s over now.”
Allen said he realizes the board has not been working well together and that there have been communication breakdowns and butting of heads.
The board is working to improve that, he said.
Supervisors asked Allen for a long- term EDA plan, something they said they’d never seen.
Allen said the EDA was prepared — before funding was cut — to make a presentation to the city and county boards in February regarding their plan.
The EDA recently completed a large study of all potential industrial sites in the area.
Allen said a U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development grant funded the survey.
With this compilation, going after industry will be much easier, he said.
Lazarus said he would feel better in making a decision about the EDA after seeing that presentation.
EDA board member James West told the city and county board he was more than willing to meet with them more often.
“For the county to throw a stone at the EDA is not the way to do it,” West said. “You don’t throw a stone and then say, ‘Let’s talk.’”
He reminded the boards that the EDA board members are unpaid volunteers, who, especially in the case of Allen, are putting in countless hours of free work.
“The EDA doesn’t get anything for being on the board,” West said. “We don’t get a turkey; we don’t get a ham. Woody’s not getting paid.”
Alderwoman Joyce Arceneaux-Mathis questioned whether the EDA board would be able to continue functioning without the county’s funds.
Allen said the $100,000 the EDA gets from the aldermen should be enough to pay the salaries of its two employees and cover rent and utilities for the rest of the year.
Supervisor Darryl Grennell, Campbell and the entire board of aldermen all said they wanted to see the EDA stay around.
And Lazarus, Felter and Watts said they never wanted to disband the board, they just want to see change.
In the spirit of the joint meeting, all three boards — supervisors, aldermen and EDA — agreed that having more communication and meeting more often is key.
“There has to be cooperation,” Campbell said. “We can’t do anything in this county if we’re fighting each other.”
Mathis suggested the boards meet quarterly to discuss the EDA’s performance.
And the boards decided they would meet again soon to further discuss the EDA’s funding. Only the aldermen will continue funding the EDA. The county plans to discuss their portion of the funding further after the AG opinion.
Comments
Posted by oldsaw (anonymous) on February 3, 2009 at 8:24 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Woody did like Rowell. What a surprise, he has run off every EDA director we've had.
Posted by happybunny (anonymous) on February 3, 2009 at 8:32 a.m. (Suggest removal)
It's ridiculous to assume we can function without the EDA. Natchez is dying a slow and painful death. Without someone working to attract new industry, Natchez will die. Lazarus, Watts, and Spanky are idiots.
Posted by Iwonder2 (anonymous) on February 3, 2009 at 9 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Natchez has been dying a slow and painful death with the EDA in place. The slow and painful death did not begin with Lazarus, Watts and Spanky voting to stop the funding. Are they idiots for requiring that we see a return for the moneys spent? Are they idiots for asking for accountability? What would be idiotic is if they kept spending our tax dollars on a system that does not work.
Yes, Natchez is suffering from loss of industry and failure to attract more industry. The EDA has been in place during all of this failure. The Supervisors pulling funding did not cause this failure. The EDA has failed to produce results.
What the Supervisors are asking for is results. If we're going to invest $175,000.00 shouldn't we expect results? The problem isn't the Supervisors, the problem is a system that clearly has not worked.
If you'll search the archives of the Democrat, you'll find a history of articles that clearly identify this failure over and over again. The Aldermen have even considered pulling their funding in the past. They have also questioned the return on their investment. Are they idiots too?
What the Supervisors are doing here is protecting our investment, asking for accountability and asking for a well structured plan that will bring results.
Thank you Henry, Mike and Spanky for having the guts to stand up and demand a return on our $175,000.00.
Posted by bellesouth (anonymous) on February 3, 2009 at 9:11 a.m. (Suggest removal)
“If he could do his job, he would have been doing his job,” Allen said."
I would think this is true. Rentech was all over the paper if he wanted to read about it.
"And Lazarus, Felter and Watts said they never wanted to disband the board, they just want to see change." Yeah right! Take away their money and you'll see change!
"Watts and supervisors Mike Lazarus and S.E. “Spanky” Felter voted to suspend the EDA funding. "
Thank you Dan Dillard for bringing up the fact that they are not the "Deciders" on this issue. I think we should take away these guys' funding.
Posted by andy (anonymous) on February 3, 2009 at 9:54 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I am proud of you guys from the adams supervisors office after reading this article STAND YOUR GROUND
Posted by natchezGT (anonymous) on February 3, 2009 at 10:06 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I am not sure what you call return on on $175,000. One million dollars from Rentech, hundreds of jobs from CCA, potentially the biggest industrial project in Southwest Mississippi. What else do you want? I think my portion of $175,000 is very well spent.
Posted by andy (anonymous) on February 3, 2009 at 10:32 a.m. (Suggest removal)
joyce who are your arms stretched out to meet you looking good and I love your opinions on this even if I am with the supervisors on saving the money and doing their job and find something for sw miss
Posted by natchezsouthside (anonymous) on February 3, 2009 at 11:44 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Watts campaigned on getting a VA Hosp. in Natchez. Still waiting Henry! We are all ears on what you have accomplished on that VA Hosp!
Posted by Iwonder2 (anonymous) on February 3, 2009 at 11:57 a.m. (Suggest removal)
EDA did not bring Rentech and CCA to the table.
If you have cable television, watch channel 4 tonight at 6pm. Following the supervisors meeting, there will be a discussion on what EDA has accomplished and what some of these accomplishments have cost the tax payers of Adams County.
$175,000.00 / year may not sound like a lot of money to some, but 10 years at $175,000.00 = $1,750,000.00??? Search the archives of the Democrat articles over the last ten years. See if you can find the return on that kind of money.
This isn't about pointing fingers, and name calling, this is about addressing the issue of a system that just isn't working. That's what our Supervisors are trying to accomplish.
Posted by Krogers (anonymous) on February 3, 2009 at 12:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)
With those funds totalling $275,000 for economic development- why not just establish a small business incubator facility to help locals start a business.........we have plenty of buildings that we could partner with Co-Lin or Alcorn with , they would provide staff, we provide the building and furniture and equipment, and train people to effectively run a business, or establish a research and demonstration farm for growing horticultural crops,...........I know this works as I have done this before with Alcorn - the Alcorn Cooperative Ext Service- up in Bolivar Co,
or budget that money for travel of aldermen and supervisors and mayor to entice larger companies to consider Natchez for a new facility - plant, factory, chain store, etc
let's get real and do something ourselves with that money that will work, instead of paying salaries to outsiders that will lead nowhere ( I am assuming that is what the money would be for?) In my opinion these economic development professionals are mainly concerned with developing the economy of their own pocket, not Natchez/Adams Co. Just look at the last guy, he didn't do much and moved on as quick as he could..........
we have the manpower in place with plenty of aldermen/women, supervisors, mayor and mayor's staff, volunteer citizens, etc........
I'm not so sure these funds over the last several years resulted directly in Rentech, the prison, etc, as a lot of those decisions are based on the companies particular needs- location, transportation types access ( river, rail, big road) and no amount of begging and giving tax breaks will matter...... I think our local situation is pretty good in comparison to what's going on around the country in other areas, so I can't help but agree with our county supervisors that it is wise to save our money.
Maybe give each family in the area ( with 15,000 + - devided by 4 members/family avg = 3750 families,) giving $73 to each family to spend locally, and the economic multiplier effect of that money circulating in the local economy would be great ( if you believe in current spread the wealth socialistic liberal political theory? personally I do not) Hey, then the mayor could at least make good on his promise to give free water for a month!!!!!
Posted by Krogers (anonymous) on February 3, 2009 at 12:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)
maybe we need to get new volunteers on the EDA
as this current bunch appear to be a pack of knuckleheads that cannot get along and talk to each other and produce results........how do you fire a volunteer?
Posted by natchezGT (anonymous) on February 3, 2009 at 12:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)
For someone who is intimately involved with the Rentech project, I can tell you this — Ask Rentech who they call when they have a question — it is the EDA (it is not the supervisors or the aldermen). Everybody keeps saying that the EDA didn't bring the Rentech to the table. But they are the ones keeping them at the table. I know that for a fact.
Posted by LOVESNATCHEZ (anonymous) on February 3, 2009 at 1:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)
As usual, it HAS to be JOYCE ARCENEAUX'S face on the front page. She should run for president. With all the trips she makes and her picture in the paper every other day, she certainly has the exposure. Now, if she would just JUST THE HELL UP!!!!
Posted by natchezGT (anonymous) on February 3, 2009 at 1:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Also. If like the aldermen the supervisors pay $500 an hour for TV and spend an average of 3 hours at each meeting - that is $1500 a meeting. $1500 times 24 meetings = $36,000. That's 1/5 what they pay the EDA. By the way who is paying for tonight's extra coverage? If it comes out of the county - I don't think that was approved and is questionable legally.
Posted by natchezGT (anonymous) on February 3, 2009 at 1:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Obviously after a four hour meeting (that will be televised) Curly, Moe and Larry still can't convince people they are right. So they have to buy the television time themselves so they will not have anyone to rebut their arguments.
Posted by EnKiKur (Marty Ellerbe) on February 3, 2009 at 1:45 p.m. (Suggest removal)
The city could fully fund the EDA, if it wanted to, by getting the money from the $6 million dollars Natchez Water Works has stashed.
For some reason this article and the photos make me think of that Jerry Lee Lewis song "Whole lotta shakin' goin' on".
"Well I said come over baby
we got chicken in the barn
oooh... huh..
Come over baby
babe we got the bull by the horn-a
We ain't fakin'
Whole lot of legislatin' goin' on"
Posted by bellesouth (anonymous) on February 3, 2009 at 1:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)
The only voice of reason here:
"Dillard went on to read from the legislation that once funding for the EDA is set for the fiscal year, it cannot be changed.
“For anyone to think that they can withhold funds, I think they would be in dereliction of their duties,” he said. “You can do it, but the consequences would be that possibly you are in violation of your oath to uphold the laws of the State of Mississippi.
“Before you jump off into some deep water here and find out that the hole is deeper than you think it is, I think we need to look at this.”
And we learn that the EDA Board do not get paid: "He reminded the boards that the EDA board members are unpaid volunteers, who, especially in the case of Allen, are putting in countless hours of free work."
What is wrong with you people who stand behind the County supervisors who are thumbing their noses at the rule of law and the City of Natchez at the same time. If these volunteers are not doing anything then they are not spending money and they will not do anything unless they can spend the money to bring business into town. The reason they need money is for the likes of doing more vetting of the businesses so they don't get screwed like they did with the engineers. The County got the CCA and we got Rentech and now they tell Natchez they aren't going to pay anymore. You are not going to get anything if you don't fund the EDA. And the supervisors haven't done anything for economic development and they do get paid.
Posted by Bobaloo (anonymous) on February 3, 2009 at 2:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)
bored of stupidvisors
Posted by natchez1 (anonymous) on February 3, 2009 at 2:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)
The EDA until the last couple of years has been totally unsucessful. The last few years though it appears to have brought Rentech and some money (although it really was just a land deal - many people have spent a million plus on property). We also have a new prison which brought in many construction workers if no prisoners and long term jobs (so far).
The hard part is how much of this was due to Jeff Rowell? who was young and very well paid?
Woody Allen seems to think he was useless - but we still had some success. The problem always is everyone will take the credit for the success - no one wants to take the blame; for mistakes or lack of progress.
It is hard to not fund the EDA - who would be against it? The problem is twofold Natchez lacks many assests that companies are looking for when they startup or relocate, and the EDA (if you believe some folks) doesn't have enough money to hire a really great EDA director.
Woody Allen never let Jeff do anything (so why pay someone $100,000+ to answer the phone?)
The plan for the EDA was to hire Philip West as director (he needs a job) This is when the mini revolt started; installing PW would allow him to earn a very high salary (much better than being Mayor and waaaaaaay better than a State Rep). This would then allow PW to retire with State Benefits at a good percentage of that salary. It is good to have friends in high places.
Natchez needs more industry, needs better jobs, the problem is how do we achieve that? PW is well connected, would he do a good job? hard to say, I voted for him as SR and for Mayor, if he actually worked and stayed off the golf course - 9-5 Monday to Friday put in a full week - he would be a good choice. If this is just to allow PW to retire in style, why should we fund the EDA.
Posted by natchezsouthside (anonymous) on February 3, 2009 at 2:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)
And typically, Haley-do-nothing isn't doing anything to lure business to Natchez.
When it comes to global economics, a bunch of yahoo local supervisors in backwater Mississippi can't get on anyone's radar.
Natchez needs leadership from the state level and time and again we can see what Haley-do-nothing cares about. Gambling boats, gambling parlors, and the coast.
Hey Haley, ever even been to Natchez?
Maybe could use some of the Economic Dev. money to hire a car and bring Haley-do-nothing to Natchez and let him try and do his job for a change.
Posted by natchezsouthside (anonymous) on February 3, 2009 at 2:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Wait just a minute. I just read someone's post that Philip needs a job.
My goodness, how can that be? I've seen illegals working around Adams county. If illegals can find jobs, I figured everyone else was already employed!
Gee, go figure. Illegals can find work and Philip can't. Hmmm.
Posted by EnKiKur (Marty Ellerbe) on February 3, 2009 at 3:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)
what you say makes a lot of sense natchez1. I have been wondering what all the controversy is over since anyone with the desire could act as the EDA director without even having an EDA or anyone having to pay for it.
As far as CCA, CCA actively looks for economically depressed areas when they want to expand, the more depressed the better, but not so depressed they can't get water or power. It is not that hard a job to sell Adams County as such a location, CCA might even have sought out Adams County instead of the other way around.
Rentech, too, needed a certain sort of location. The Air Force has plans to subsidize 10 such plants but the locations have to meet certain criteria the IP location meets. Likely Rentech was steered here by someone other than the EDA regardless of what the EDA did once Rentech showed up. Natchez is just 20 hours by barge from a federal fuel storage facility at mile 161, 20 hours away by barge. Natchez is far enough inland the plant would not be exposed to hurricanes, and Natchez is high enough floods are not a problem.
Posted by Iwonder2 (anonymous) on February 3, 2009 at 3:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I've been corrected on the airtime of the supervisor meeting.
today airs: 4 pm
rest of the week: 7pm
The first hour is Supervisor meeting the second is about EDA.
Posted by andy (anonymous) on February 3, 2009 at 4:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)
natchezsouthside sheriff office sent some mexicans back to mexico last week for being in the country illegal and they were working here well two gone we need to send more of them back
Posted by natchezsouthside (anonymous) on February 3, 2009 at 4:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I never understood how we can have people on welfare, and yet illegals can find work.
Why aren't the people in public housing and on welfare and food stamps out sweeping the street? We're already paying them!
Posted by natchez1 (anonymous) on February 3, 2009 at 4:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)
EnKiKur,
You are right, everyone who lives in Adams County should encourage any prospect to Natchez, sadly we often seem better at running them off.
As for Haley not bringing any prospects, his job is to get them to MS - which he has been very succesful at. Once they look at MS they choose the best site for their company. Natchez rarely makes the short list even in MS.
Natchez lacks an interstate (or two), it does not have a main line railway, it does not have good schools (non private at least) it does not have a large unemployed talented workwork, and does not have much suitable land for an industrial park - what it calls an industrial park is underwater too often to use (unless you wanted to build submarines?) We have also lost almost all our industry and even the tourist industry is in a death spiral, sadly many people dismiss tourism as an industry but many companies locate in areas that they like to visit. Without any tourists or industry Natchez will drop off prospects' radar screen.
We do have a good quality of life, a decent downtown and restaurants, (considering we are a town of 18,000 in the middle of nowhere), and fairly decent weather.
Natchez has improved some of its worst flaws, the roads are better - Thanks Butch, our politicans have improved (a little - they may be getting worse again - too early to tell).
Natchez looks better than it has looked in years - still lots of room for improvement.
Posted by ntz143 (anonymous) on February 3, 2009 at 8:53 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I wonder how Henry liked having his brother (actually half-brother) Daniel school him on the law...lol! Why bring up who didn't like who? What good does it do now? I am reminded of little boys in a sandbox....totally asinine. I just wish the BOS..or should I say the three stooges, would actually make decisions based on all the facts!!! They continue to jump the gun on every issue...it makes them look foolish...and takes away their credibility on issues that they are right about...like this one. EDA needs to be fixed...no question about that. They haven't functioned they way they should since Fernandez (or whatever his name was) was there. Reorganization is needed...but we need to have an EDA office or we can kiss any industry goodbye. I personally don't want some of the yahoos who call themselves supervisors representing ME or my community to industry prospects..how embarrassing!
Posted by natchezsouthside (anonymous) on February 3, 2009 at 9:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)
"As for Haley not bringing any prospects, his job is to get them to MS - which he has been very succesful at."
Mississippi still ranks 49th or 50th in state rankings. Haley-do-nothing is usless.
Posted by natchezrepublican (anonymous) on February 3, 2009 at 9:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)
What is this woman doing on the front page!?!?! She looks like a voodoo queen casting a spell! I'm still laughing my ___ off!!!
Posted by mike8427 (anonymous) on February 3, 2009 at 9:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I am just glad that there is at least one Intelligent member in this mess - Dillard. Even if you are totally against the EDA, follow the letter of the law. The supervisors agreed to pay for the year. If after this year, they want to discontinue, so be it. Do it the right way like elected officals are supposed to do.
Posted by corvett40 (anonymous) on February 3, 2009 at 10:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I'm glad to see the Board of Supervisors it watching the $$$$$,Do it the right way Don't give the EDA anymore money .I would like to see the Adams County workers get a raise .
Posted by ntz143 (anonymous) on February 4, 2009 at 8:37 a.m. (Suggest removal)
dream on corvett40....the BOS will vote THEMSELVES a raise before county workers see a dime!
Posted by bellesouth (anonymous) on February 4, 2009 at 8:41 a.m. (Suggest removal)
People in Natchez are always complaining about poor economic standards in Natchez, but they don't want to pay or work for trying to get businesses to come to Natchez. If the EDA is working, fix it. Don't kill it.
Posted by CoolChief (anonymous) on February 4, 2009 at 9:46 a.m. (Suggest removal)
she looks like she just sat on a mad squirrel
Posted by ntz143 (anonymous) on February 4, 2009 at 10:33 a.m. (Suggest removal)
LMAO CoolChief..you are absolutely correct!!
Posted by sunshinegirl (anonymous) on February 4, 2009 at 1:53 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I know Henry has our best interests at heart - he doesn't want to pay for something we're not getting. Accountability - let's have it for everybody. The AG's office should be able to set us straight on the legalities of the matter, and we can take it from there. Hang tough, Henry! You do have backup.
Posted by natchezsouthside (anonymous) on February 4, 2009 at 2:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Henry? Henry Watts? Has your interest at heart????
PUHLEEZE!
Where's all that economic development he said he was going to bring to Adams Co. when he ran for election and re-election????? Still looking and waiting Hank!
Henry's in it for Henry.
Posted by Iwonder2 (anonymous) on February 4, 2009 at 5:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)
natchezsouthside, you said Henry's in it for Henry? What exactly is he getting that any other supervisors isn't getting?
Posted by natchezsouthside (anonymous) on February 5, 2009 at 11:09 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Well now that's a question for Henry, isn't it?
Posted by natashakubelikov (anonymous) on April 16, 2009 at 9:34 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Natchez is dead. They just ain,t unplugged the machine yet
And the people who discouraged businesses to come heremany,many years ago and make everyone struggle to follow ridiculous rules and building codes and regs and stupid stuff are a big part of the death of Natchezl.
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