Posted by southernbelle (anonymous) on February 21, 2009 at 9:28 a.m. (Suggest removal)

No ya'll,it is part of past. You can't change it. BUT you can make sure that part of our history is presented in a truthful manner.If you just sit back and not say anything,then it can become a very one-sided tale. No,Elgoodo, tourism has not dried up. I'm here to tell you it is alive and trying to recover from an economical slump just like every other industry in our country. Just because it is not of interest to you personally doesn't mean it's over. The only way we can keep moving ahead in the future is to accept our past and not make the same mistakes. Learn from it. All our ancestors did not own slaves nor were they all slaves. It wasn't all Africans that came here to this great land as servants. For some whites it was the only way they could afford passage to America. There was an end of their servitude within a year or so after they were here though. I do agree with ElGoodo on being tired of that same old out of tune song of "poor me. my ancestors were slaves". Get over it and be proud of being an American where you can make something of yourself,if you really want to. I don't care if your grandmother raised you. At least she was there and cared enough to do it. Now back to the heritage part of our story. It is our story and it is a very important part of our history so it should be told . We should include it in our tourism. Now is a good time to do it. And my white friends,we have a responsibility to make sure it is told truthfully and not dramatized to suit Hollywood or the NAACP! It has enough truthful drama that is real so it shouldn't be embellished. But it will if people are so afraid to be politically incorrect and sit back and say nothing. That will surely mean some disagreements. We have to be able to agree to disagree to avoid any future anger toward each other than would inhibit a possible progressive future. It's actually a chance for us to work together and prove just how far we have come.

Posted by kpage1 (anonymous) on February 21, 2009 at 9:33 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I say go for it if they plan to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Nothing should be left out or the whole truth is meaningless. The entire project will be fruitless if they pick and choose the parts to tell in fear of inflaming someone. One's history should be embraced, without parts of it forever hidden in closets.

"tourism teat"...that's a good un, EG.

Hank Hill and Lady Bird can come visit anytime they want at my house, BD! Just keep LouAnn at home...she'll make my son ask questions I'm not ready to answer.

Posted by Cursechez (anonymous) on February 21, 2009 at 11:31 a.m. (Suggest removal)

The geriatric tourists have all lost half their 401k's and retirement investments in the stock market meltdown, they're not going anywhere anymore. Certainly not when gas goes back up to near-$4/gallon this summer.

Posted by ijohnson (anonymous) on February 21, 2009 at 1:40 p.m.

(This comment was removed by the site staff.)

Posted by ijohnson (anonymous) on February 21, 2009 at 2:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I GUESS THE TRUTH REALLY HURTS!?!?!?!? All this talk about telling the truth, then when you do . . . pouf . . . zap . . . the powers that be (and those cry babies they support who posts on here) magically erases it -- just like they did in our American History books!!!!! YOU PEOPLE ARE REALLY SOMETHING!

Posted by ijohnson (anonymous) on February 21, 2009 at 2:55 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I don't see what was so offensive about my previous post . . . IT WAS THE TRUTH!!! If you want to re-enact the truth, according to the comments posted here, then do so by all means. Everybody (per your comments) wants to see the truth -- from the slaves picking cotton . . . to the slaves being beaten . . . to the Black men being shown hanging from the trees. Yet one mention of the truth about the rapes that occured and the site is about to be disabled. There's a mad dash for the "REMOVAL" button!!!!

The only thing that's CRYSTAL clear at this point is: YOU PEOPLE CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by vidalia1 (anonymous) on February 21, 2009 at 3:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)

AMEN.ijohnsonAgain you hit the nail on the head as always.

Posted by Kaintuck (anonymous) on February 21, 2009 at 3:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Which truth? The photos of African-Americans who were lynched, or the photos of freed, well-to-do African-American families that prospered here, on display in the intriguing, historical exhibit at the Presbyterian Church? The actual historic situation regarding black and white folks in the South is far more complex than what a thirty-second sound bite, bumper sticker, or even what is taught in many schools, can provide, and is not a simple either/or...

Human interactions and relationships are frequently multi-layered, even between spouses or friends. DNA evidence suggests that our third President, Thomas Jefferson (the principal author of the Declaration of Independence, who wrote "that all men are created equal"), had an almost 40-year relationship (beyond just sex) with a woman he owned: Sally Hemmings. There is evidence that this was not a "one-way street". She was the half-sister of his deceased wife, whom he promised at her insistence on her death bed (his wife), that he would never remarry. (Jefferson technically honored that demand.)

Anyway, the South is a long and culturally rich experience, and there is enough room for everyone who contributed their blood, sweat and tears.

Posted by ijohnson (anonymous) on February 21, 2009 at 4:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)

((Kaintuck)) I'm talking about IT ALL . . . THE ENTIRE TRUTH. I was thinking about the Thomas Jefferson/Sally Hemings story, too. Thomas Jefferson's blood ran through the veins of ALL six or more of Sally Heming's children! Yes, their relationship was consensual and, according to some historians, a love story. However, there were too many stories to count that involved rape.

Yes, there were many Black families that prospered here, too, including mine. Our history should be told properly and as factually as possible. I would love to see more of the positive facts re-enacted that involved the successful Black families and how they rose out of the ashes of the Civil War. They did prosper and they did well and their story should be told, too!

If done properly, incorporating more facts about slave life and how Blacks were able to make it when they had NOTHING -- NOT EVEN THE 40 ACRES AND A MULE they were promised in order to be self-sufficient and provide for their families.

THEY HAD ABSOLUTELY NOTHING but many who chose to remain in the South managed to survive.

Posted by ijohnson (anonymous) on February 21, 2009 at 4:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)

The folks who aspire to move this project forward should arrange to interview some of those old sharecroppers (if they are still alive) or their descendants and let them tell their story. Get it on film. Tell the story of the Black lady, Mrs. Irving, who is 102 years old and featured in the Natchez Democrat several weeks ago. I'm sure she should be able to relay some factual information from a Black perspective about life in Natchez during those times based on what she was told and what she has experienced over the years, good and bad.

Approaching "tourism", as we know it in Natchez, from a different angle may be a very good thing for our City. It would garner a lot of "press" for sure because it probably has not been done like this anywhere else in America. Yes, let's embrace our story . . . a rich story about the Black and White culture that shared so much. If we could have a meeting of the minds, leaving the egos and negativity at the door, I think we could come up with a plan to share our story in a provocative, respectful and truthful way. It could be a goldmine for Natchez and our region! At the very least, if it is promoted properly with press releases and commercial advertisements, it would attract a lot of attention (nationwide) from publishers, film makers, tourists, historians and possibly other industries that may really benefit Natchez in many ways.

Most importantly, this may be a good way to re-capture some of our history that was lost and restore some integrity to the South. For that reason alone, I say, "DO IT"!

Posted by Kaintuck (anonymous) on February 21, 2009 at 8:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)

ijohnson,

I liked your responses, especially the 4:52pm one: you might be on to something here. Wouldn't it be interesting if Natchez became the one city in the United States that told the true story of the human trial (good and bad) in the American South. The South is not a single experience, but instead, more like a tapestry, where the fabrics of different rich cultures and experiences became interwoven, to create a unique Southern, now American experience. That might be a way to breathe new life (and perspective) into Natchez during a period when it is very much needed...

Posted by southernbelle (anonymous) on February 21, 2009 at 9:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Rape has happened in all races throughout history. I believe every slave was not beaten by every slave owner anymore than every wife is beaten and abused by every husband. It happened and it still happens but not with the constancy some people want to believe. This is what I mean about the drama. This is what I mean about the "Poor me. I'm a victim because 250 yrs. ago my ancestors were brought to this country in chains." It did happen and it doesn't have to be dramatized by implying it was worse than it was. The poor whites had things a lot worse than most of the slaves. Some of the slave quarters still stand,but you sure don't see the shanties so many white people lived in . There were signs that said" Irish need not apply." I don't recall ever seeing or hearing about one that read"Negroes need not apply."Poor me, I'm a victim because my Irish ancestors were treated so bad. They didn't even get offered 40 acres and a mule! Doesn't that sound silly?johnson, your problems lay deeper than the color of your skin. I think you enjoy provoking us on this site. I realize you feel passionate about some things,but please try and show a little class. Class is something a person is born with. It can't be bought,in case you're wondering where you can get some. Surely someone you know has some.

Posted by rebel4ever (anonymous) on February 21, 2009 at 9:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Heritage Tourism? Just don't forget my Confederate heritage. Make sure you tell the truth about that instead of painting it over to make everything Confederate bad. The CSA believed in the Constitution as written by the founders of this country and yes, slavery was a part of the equation but not the whole equation. Make sure my heritage is included in a factual and correct manner.

Posted by southernbelle (anonymous) on February 21, 2009 at 9:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Right,rebel4ever! I don't know what it is going to take for some people to get it through their thick skulls that the war was NOT fought over slavery . States rights! Too much government! There were tax issues. Oh so many things were not right for us southerners at that time. many of the south's politicians tried to convince President Lincoln not to free all the slaves at once. Many felt it would be better for the slaves and the economics of our country to release them slowly. The south knew slavery was wrong and many knew that it wouldn't be economically sound to continue the practice. Machinery was being invented that would take their place. They also had the moral issue of owning another human being. It weighed heavily on many slave owners. These were people that really cared about one another. They saw each other every day of their lives. They knew when someone was ill or having a baby or even down with the flu or pneumonia. Their children were often playmates and later in life felt devotion toward each other. Slavery was wrong but so was going into war so quickly. Slavery didn't just happen overnight. It was in place for years. Not having a plan for the freed slaves is one of the reasons we still have so much anger and bitterness between races. I love the old south and I want to be proud of the new south. I want to be able to go to the grocery store and look in the eyes of every one I see there and see love and kindness. Not the mess that is so often prevalent today. We need to try and see every bodies side to this matter and move ahead. Can we do that?

Posted by southernbelle (anonymous) on February 21, 2009 at 9:40 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Slavery was an issue but not the cause. It simply wasn't that simple.

Posted by notabigot (anonymous) on February 21, 2009 at 10:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Let me start by saying that this may sound like I'm mad but try to imagine I am saying it in more of a resigned, calm voice. I am not understanding why African American Heritage is making some people so insecure about their own heritage. You are free to tell the truth about your perspective of history, too. You have a heritage. Speak up and tell us about it. Slavery is a large part of African American History. It doesn't matter how well or how poorly they were treated. Once you have presumed ownership of another human being and then forced that presumption upon them, you have dehumanized them and I don't know that you can do much worse to a person than that.. If one slave was beaten, that was one too many There is just no way to pretty slavery up. You can't deny an entire group of people the right to learn about, understand, and celebrate their heritage just because it makes you uncomfortable. The truth is that people are people and we are all pretty much the same. Reb, I don't demonize The Confederacy. I had ancestors that fought for The Confederacy. They were dirt poor Scot-Cherokees. All you have to do with people of our blood line is yell,"freedom" and "fight" in the same sentence and they're there. I don't know what they thought about the slavery issue, but I like to think that allowing people to own other people was not on their agenda. Like I said earlier embrace your heritage. It's up to you to tell it. I didn't mean to offend you on the other story, but you and I think so differently that I can't even get my mind around a lot of what you say. An just in case you misunderstood, culturally, I am white

Posted by ijohnson (anonymous) on February 21, 2009 at 10:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Yes, ((kaintuck)) I think we're on the same page and want to tell the same story. The possibilities are great for some good to come out of the Southern experience that only those who lived it can tell. The lives of Blacks and Whites in the South was so dependent on each other . . . so interwoven. Maybe re-enacting our experience truthfully may bring some healing and closure to many years of pain and misunderstandings.

Posted by SayItRight (anonymous) on February 22, 2009 at 5:56 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Read this. Very interesting. Only 82 pages.

King Cotton and Old Glory
Natchez, Mississippi in the age of sectional controversy and Civil War
by William Banks Taylor
Published in 1977, Taylor (Hattiesburg, MS)

Posted by kpage1 (anonymous) on February 22, 2009 at 9:04 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Everytime I get on here and suggest the truth be told entirely, and not just selected parts, I get jumped on. Does ijohnson want the truth or not? As I read ijohnson's posts, I get the feeling I'm being screaming at with spit flying from her lips, hate shooting darts out of her eyes, and fists balled up in knots. Nothing can be done successfully if this attitude doesn't change (yes IJ...the change Obama speaks of). She may not realize she comes off this way, but I believe we see it better than she.

Posted by tiredofcrazytalk (anonymous) on February 22, 2009 at 11:57 a.m. (Suggest removal)

History is a way of life, we must study it to move ahead with our future, this town history needs to be placed out in the open so the whole truth can be told

Posted by ijohnson (anonymous) on February 22, 2009 at 12:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)

((kpage)) please stop projecting your behavior on to me. You are a joke!

Posted by Kaintuck (anonymous) on February 22, 2009 at 1:58 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Bad Dog- Your initial post indicates you believe black folks are inferior. I want to give you a few things to think about: You think living in ghettos is wrong. Well, where I am from (Kentucky) a lot of poor, white folks live in rural areas. You state that blacks have higher illiteracy rates (you actually said "illiterate rates"), but there are a lot of poor, white folks in the Upper South with very high illiteracy rates. You mentioned blacks and drugs, but again, in Kentucky, huge amounts of marijuana are grown (its Kentucky's #1 cash crop) and a lot of white folks make crystal meth across the state. You mention high teen pregnancy rates; but again, Kentucky has high teen pregnancy rates among white folks.

You may think Kentucky is some pitiful, hick, backwater (sound familiar?). Well, maybe it is. All of these societal ills are the result of ignorance, not race. It doesn't matter if people are black or white, red or yellow. People tend to perpetuate the culture they grew up in - urban or rural.

E-mail is an imperfect means of communication; it does not lend itself well to nuance. I am a white man, but did not realize ijohnson was a woman (kpage mentioned that here). If true, her legitimate comments are fine. She has every right to express herself, and was far less vitriolic than many white folks who post on here regularly. So how about we make an effort to improve people and communication in Natchez, without resorting to obnoxious race-baiting, like spoiled middle-school brats?

Posted by rebel4ever (anonymous) on February 22, 2009 at 9:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)

notabigot, I agree with most of your post in response to my earlier post. What I am going to say is really not on the topic of the article and I apologize for getting away from that but one of the reasons so many white people in the South get fired up is because of the one-sidedness of the issue. We get told by the government or business community that we cannot display the Confederate Battle flag because it may offend someone. You know that anyone can be offended by almost anything. Yet, we get almost everyday by the mention of the NAACP (a racist organization), the United Negro College Fund ( a segregationist organization, the Congressional Black Caucus (a segregationist) and many others. I understand there may be a need for these organizations to help a people feel a sense of belonging but why I am labled a racist if I want a similar organization? We do not call for their removal or suppression of their right to exist. But, because of another horrible period in our country's history, the Jim Crow Era of politics these same organizations do not want anything related to the Confederacy to exist. Now, is that right? Let me have my heritage without interference and the other Americans can have their heritage. There is just enough Rebel blood still flowing in my veins that when someone tells me I can't, then by all my ancestors blood I will say yes I can and I will fly my REBEL flag to prove it. Now, I also understand that not all black people feel negative toward the South but the media and a certain vocal minority make sure we all feel some animosity toward each other in order to keep themselves a job. It is time we forget about being politically correct and just try to get along and recognize diversity exists and you can't legislate it away.

Posted by knowsthefacts (anonymous) on February 22, 2009 at 11:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)

NATCHEZ......WHERE THE OLD SOUTH STILL LIVES!!!!!

Posted by notabigot (anonymous) on February 23, 2009 at 12:40 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I don't have a problem with any group existing as long as their intent is not to stifle or cause harm to another group. I realize that there are a lot of people alive today who were terrorized by the group of people who used that flag as their symbol. I can understand why they take offense at it. I know about that rebel blood and the effect being told you can't do something, too. For me it's all about the intent of the use it. My son had a flag hanging over his bed when he was a kid. He's not a racist, so it didn't bother me. On the other hand, I went to a house a few weeks ago where there was a Confederate flag in the front yard flying from a 20 foot pole. This was the only time I've met these people, and four out of ten things that came out of their mouths was blatantly, unashamedly racist. That flag flying from that 20 foot pole began to bother me at that point. Also, I went to a festival flea market sort of thing not long ago. There was a booth there with rebel flags on everything in it. They were selling novelties and stickers with the most racist things I've ever heard printed on them. As long as blatantly racist people associate the confederate flag with themselves, there is going to be a problem with the display of said flag. The only thing I see that you can do about it is to encourage racist people to stop using your flag. I let my kid have one inside, but I would never consider displaying one outside, because I am sure that it stirs some bad memories and some powerfully bad feelings for some people, and I don't want to make other people feel like that.

Posted by ijohnson (anonymous) on February 23, 2009 at 7:28 a.m. (Suggest removal)

((notabigot)) THANKS for this post. I will not assume that you're White or Black but one thing I will assume is that you're NOT A BIGOT! You summed up in a nutshell the controversy surrounding the Confederate Flag. As long as the racists continue to use it to symbolize the epitome of racism, the less it will be accepted as a symbol of anything good.

To me, it's not what you display, it's why you display it, your intent, and the actions associated with the displaying of same.

To all the bigots and shameful racists, The NAACP, The Negro College Fund, The Congressional Black Caucus, the Black this and the Black that were not founded to oppress White people nor violate their civil rights. They were not founded to instill hate or fear in anyone, either. So stop using them as an example to further your agenda. You know why they were founded. So give it a rest!

((notabigot)) I posted a comment yesterday on the "Poll" article about my neighbor who had a huge Confederate Flag pinned to his living room wall. Yes, it took me by surprised and frankly it shocked me because I wasn't expecting to see it. I was very uncomfortable because of what it represented in my life and its negative connotation. And it took a while for me to trust them enough to allow them into my personal space to even hold a conversation.

Posted by southernbelle (anonymous) on February 23, 2009 at 8:37 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I whole-heartily agree with reb. I also believe once a flag or any other symbol of importance has been uses for something of major significance,then it should be retired when no longer used and not used again. If ya'll don't think The NAACP and the other organizations mentioned above are not racist then I'm afraid you lead a very sheltered life. They have some good qualities only if you are black. There is nothing equal about them in our society. And that my friends, is why so many people feel as I do about them. I'm for equal rights for all people. Not just one race.

Posted by kpage1 (anonymous) on February 23, 2009 at 8:55 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Hate to burst your bubble IJ, but my flag has nothing to do with you, as you obviously believe according to your posts. When I look at my flag, a picture of field hands and whipped backs does not come to mind, nor do the terrible haters in the KKK. I don't even picture hoop-skirted gals sashaying amongst the camellias. Rather, I FEEL a kinship with my heritage...my Southern Heritage that no one, not even a Mad Black Woman will take from me.

Posted by ijohnson (anonymous) on February 23, 2009 at 9:06 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Oh, my . . . I see the party has started! However, the only person who's MAD (in EVERY sense of the word) is you. I feel compelled to post a portion of ((kaintuck's)) post that reflects the same:

Posted by Kaintuck (anonymous) on February 22, 2009 at 1:58 p.m. (Suggest removal)

. . . I am a white man, but did not realize ijohnson was a woman (kpage mentioned that here). If true, her legitimate comments are fine. She has every right to express herself, and was far less vitriolic than many white folks who post on here regularly. So how about we make an effort to improve people and communication in Natchez, without resorting to obnoxious race-baiting, like spoiled middle-school brats?

NOW, THAT SPEAKS VOLUMES ABOUT YOU!!!

Posted by rebel4ever (anonymous) on February 23, 2009 at 9:48 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I am sorry some of the posts have gotten so negative but again I must ask, why should I have to give up the symbols of my heritage to accommodate someone else. I am not a racist, however, I have gotten angry because some think because I am white I owe them something. I don't! One of my best friends is a black man from Pennsylvania. He and I can discuss things without getting upset and we can agree to disagree when it comes to that. I think we could all try to do that.

So, ijohnson, you are telling me that if I wanted to start an organization such as the National Association for the Advancement of White People, you think I would be doing it to oppress black people and not try to help my race deal with issues affecting it. Is that right? If that is how you feel then I must throw the racist title back at you. Why didn't you engage your neighbor in a conversation about why they had the flag in their living room instead of feeling uncomfortable? We have to discuss this matter without worrying about offending anyone. I do not support groups like the KKK and I am against the use of a Confederate flag by them. However, I don't go around asking everyone to remove their black gloves from their hands just because some angry young black people in the 60's used to raise their hands and shout Black Power, which highly offended me. This issue is so complicated and the sooner we talk without anger the sooner it can be resolved, maybe. I will state once again though, I don't mean to offend anyone with my Confederate pride but at the same time I don't really see that as my problem. Why should I have to get over it when you are unwilling to? You tell me to get over it then you do the same.

Posted by ijohnson (anonymous) on February 23, 2009 at 10:16 a.m. (Suggest removal)

((rebel4ever)) please believe me when I say that I hear you. I have never suggested that you give up anything . . .only hate you may harbour in your heart (if you have any) for another person with a different skin color. I have never suggested banning the Confederate flag. My comments are based on MY experiences as far as the Confederate flag goes. You can practice what you want just don't infringe on my rights and try to incite a race war when you fly it.

We all have known for years, especially in the South, that when you saw a Confederate Flag license plate mounted on the front of a vehicle or a Confederate sticker in the window, YOU KNEW, that person was a Klansman, closely associated with that organization, or a believer of its doctrine. Hands down, that's what it symbolized and that's what it meant.

Posted by tiredofcrazytalk (anonymous) on February 23, 2009 at 10:17 a.m. (Suggest removal)

it amazes me to know that some people will always be that rebel forever. I hope you have really studied the history of your southern people to understand the whole history of the south.

Get Real ! !

This town was gave a second chance in the 1930s' because of its history. So why not keep it alive with helping to tell the real truth of this town history.

Natchez history is a rich history you have many different ethnic group of history in this town. So start reading and some of you will become more enlighted about the whole truth and not some of it

Posted by ijohnson (anonymous) on February 23, 2009 at 10:31 a.m. (Suggest removal)

((rebel4ever)), you mentioned "anger" several times in your posts. Well, dismissal of anger should start with you. Your comments, like quite a few more posted by others on here, are laced with anger. I know this topic can get heated but try to keep a level head and think about the broader picture. It's not about you. When I discuss racism, in general, I'm not condemning you.

I'm sick and tired of all the going around-and-around about this flag, starting this "white" organization in antagonistic opposition to this "black" organization, and the NAACP, etc. The quickest way to abolish the NAACP is to dramatically improve race relations in America or reverse or resolve the problem that created it. Until that happens, I'm afraid the NAACP isn't going anywhere.

I want to talk about ways you think we can bring some type of geniune understanding and improve race relations in Natchez, in the South, and throughout America. How can we open the lines of communication to have an honest dialogue about this issue, racism, without it spinning out of control into a free-for-all?

So, ((rebel4ever)), If you can offer anything in that area, I'm all ears.

Posted by kpage1 (anonymous) on February 23, 2009 at 2:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)

No one has been more angry than you, IJ, when it comes to stating opinions...your past posts reflect it. In order to really hear something, one must first close the mouth...listening happens with the ears...or in our case...the written word. Race relations can be better if it's realized that the NAACP and other like organizations are no longer needed, AS IS ANY SEPARATIST GROUP. Look within yourself...that's where change starts. I and others who regularly post on the ND forum have tried countless times to "talk" to you but to no avail...look within IJ...I know you are a good person, and you are smart. Just let the anger go.

Posted by Idefinitelymight (Tom Scarborough) on February 23, 2009 at 5:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Some thoughts on the Confederate battle flag, since others have raised the issue here. My great-great grandfather and his two brothers fought for the Confederacy. They were on the line at Vicksburg, positioned at the top of Thayer's Approach. I don't know what was in their hearts--don't know whether or not they were ardent secessionists, or how passionate they were about defending the institution of slavery (they were slaveowners). Many around here were not. But I do know that the Confederate battle flag is a symbol that still has the power to elicit powerful and conflicting feelings.

Symbols mean what we say they mean, and that is determined by whomever controls the telling of the history. What I think many Southern African-Americans fail to grasp is how much of an historical stake they have in that symbol. The regime that produced it, after all, was built on the scarred backs of their forebears. The South would not be the distinctive region it is today, without the imprint of those Southerners in bondage. As repugnant as the thought may be to black Southerners, the Confederate flag represents an element of their history too.

I would suggest that the best way to symbolically emasculate white supremacists is for African-Americans to co-opt one of their most cherished symbols--the Confederate flag. Put it on Fubu or Carl Kani clothing. Run it around the stadium before the Grambling-Southern football game. Hell, display it proudly at NAACP meetings. Grab it, claim it, and alter the meaning of the symbol. It would drive the racists crazy, while creating common ground with heritage groups that might embrace it as a symbol of shared Southern identity. I suggest this with tongue firmly in cheek, and I admit that trying to do this would require a keen sense of humor and a commitment to irony. But I can think of nothing else that would so effectively neutralize the toxic symbolism and divisive power of the Confederate flag.

Posted by LegalEagle (anonymous) on February 23, 2009 at 7:11 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I have a better idea. Instead of Heritage Tourism, why does Natchez not promote the "garlic sausage?" Is Natchez not the only place in the United States to find such an item?

We need to move past the idea of promoting a horrid time in history. In this instance we need to let the past be the past. I do not see Japanese Americans starting heritage tours throughout California in order to show the internment camps.

Just from reading this forum it seems that bringing more African Americans to Natchez to see thier roots in slavery is not a good idea...I say sausage factory tours and an Americana theme...

Posted by sunkitty (anonymous) on February 23, 2009 at 9:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Tom - that is an excellent idea!

Posted by rebel4ever (anonymous) on February 23, 2009 at 10:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)

ijohnson, in reply, and this will be my last on the subject, since we obviously can't solve this problem on the ND website. I truly wish I had an answer to bring the reconciliation about. The problem is way bigger than you and I. I believe we could sit and talk without a free for all but I cannot speak others. I encourage you to visit a website www.southernheritage411.com for a different perspective on the issue. I thought at one time maybe the discussion could be opened and moderated by the group Mission Mississippi but I found out that the dialogue soon boiled down to the "white" group giving ground to accommodate the "black" group. This issue is not a one way street anymore. I also understand what you say about the battle flag and how it made you feel, but, you are generalizing an entire people because of some mean spirited group. Yes, this is what a lot of white people do when they see a black man dressed differently than them walking down a street toward them and they are alone. Our perceptions cause a lot of problems. How do we solve them I don't know but I do get angry when for some reason I am expected to yield my rights, privileges, heritage or whatever to pacify another just because of what happened some 50 or 60 years ago. I know some of those memories are still fresh for some but they are memories. Overall, things have gotten better. I know there are still problems with some but just as blacks don't like being stereotyped neither do whites. I guess we all just need to learn to accept the diversity of every group as long as no one is harmed, that does not include someone being offended. Those that are offended must learn to live with it as long as their rights are not being infringed upon. The final thing we must do is trust in God to lead us out of this logjam and into a prosperous future in his most beautiful land, Dixie.

Posted by southernbelle (anonymous) on February 24, 2009 at 7:43 a.m. (Suggest removal)

reb, I couldn't have said it better!

Posted by ijohnson (anonymous) on February 24, 2009 at 9:08 a.m. (Suggest removal)

((Idefinitelymight)) EXCELLENT post! Tom, after chewing on your idea for a minute or two and turning it over in my head, I couldn't agree with you more. When you think about it in historical terms, that Confederate flag is as much OURS than anybody's and maybe sharing it in a positive way may be the catalyst to bring about reconciliation I spoke about in one of my recent posts.

I don't know how the Hip Hop culture would embrace it, though. I'm sure, to them, it would give a whole new meaning to the Hip Hop slogan "Dirty South"! LOL!!!

EXCELLENT IDEA!!!!!

Posted by Idefinitelymight (Tom Scarborough) on February 24, 2009 at 11:06 a.m. (Suggest removal)

ljohnson--Absolutely it belongs as much to black Southerners, as it does to Southern whites. And they should assert their claim to it.

Some symbols simply cannot be rehabilitated, or have their singular meaning altered. The swastika is the most obvious example of that. But I think the Confederate battle flag can be revised by black Southerners so that its symbolic subtext is as much about honoring the enslaved as it traditionally has been about valorizing the enslavers.

But that's asking a lot.

Posted by ijohnson (anonymous) on February 24, 2009 at 4:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Yeah, ((Idefinitelymight)), that would be asking a lot! As you can see, there hasn't been another comment posted on this article since. It appears to be a mute issue now -- totally withdrawn from the table. I guess all the posts supporting it's revival and acceptance were NOT about the Confederate Flag's symbolization of love for our Southern heritage, after all . . . HHhhhhmmm!?!?!?!?!

Posted by southernbelle (anonymous) on February 25, 2009 at 8:51 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Wrong,ij. I am one of those that it is about Southern Heritage. And I still believe the answer to the problem of blacks being offended by our confederate flag is to have a law stating that once something symbolises any legal country or organization, it cannot be us used for anything else.

Posted by ijohnson (anonymous) on February 25, 2009 at 10:14 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I'm sorry, you lost me there ((southernbelle)). What does the confederate flag symbolize?

Posted by Idefinitelymight (Tom Scarborough) on February 25, 2009 at 1:40 p.m. (Suggest removal)

That's kind of a dumb law, southernbelle.

You cannot legislate the meaning of symbols.

Posted by ijohnson (anonymous) on February 25, 2009 at 3:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)

((southernbelle)) being that the meaning of the Confederate flag is so ambiguous and means a lot of different things to alot of people, what does it symbolize to you and why?

Posted by notabigot (anonymous) on February 25, 2009 at 6:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)

ijohnson and Idefinitelymight, read up on H.K. Edgerton. The latest article I could find was January 17, of this year, when he went to Washington to speak to Obama. I don't have a clue as to how to post links on here or I would.

Posted by ijohnson (anonymous) on February 25, 2009 at 6:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)

((notabigot)), is H.K. Edgerton the Black attorney who walks across the country carrying the Confederate Flag? If so, I watched a short documentary about him several years ago. It was interesting but appeared to be a very lonely and dangerous journey.

Posted by notabigot (anonymous) on February 25, 2009 at 8:37 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Yes he is ijohnson. While reading about him, I have come to realize that there are a lot of different perspectives and perceptions of Southern Heritage. We need someone to facilitate some real, honest, communication about all of our heritage. I can't imagine that there is a more complex, rich heritage than ours. I sent you an e mail

Posted by rebel4ever (anonymous) on February 25, 2009 at 9:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)

To those interested below is a post by H.K. Edgerton and may shed some idea of his take on Confederate Southern heritage. You can see his website at www.southernheritage411.com. He was asked by someone to help get some headstones for some black Confederate soldiers and the VA turned them down. The VA has for years provided headstones for veterans when the proper information is provided. This is an email message from H.K. posted on Wed., Feb. 25th. H. K. was once the president of the Ashville, NC branch of the NAACP. I had the opportunity to march with H. K. five miles into Vicksburg with both of us carrying the Confederate battle flag one year and learned alot about the man.

"While I appreciate any action to gain justice for these men, I think it more than appropiate to expose the discrimination that the Veterans Administration has shown towards them and the memory of the Black Confederate soldier. It for me cuts right to the chase of the dispicable rhetoric that for far too many years the revisionist historians and northern academia has put forth to the public that is clearly a Federal mandate to further their agenda of Southern social and cultural genocide aimed at destroying the spirit of the Southern people.

The Veterans Administration should not only provide the headstones, but also issue an apology to the Sons of Confederate Veterans and began programs of education that would put them in line with the treaty of truce that was agreeded upon by Grant at Appomatox on April 9, 1865 as he sat down with Marse Lee.

This Federal government has reneged on far too many promises to allow those soldiers and their siblings to go and live in peace.It has used the Southern Black man as the weapon of choice against his White Southern family and refuses to acknowledge any places of honor that the Southern Black man earned by the side of his White Southern family; thus regulated him to a status of either traitor or protagonist against his homeland of the South.

I just recently traveled to the front door of the White House to talk about the issue of race and those who would claim that this nation was too cowardly to talk about it, hid and peeked out the windows as I stood there donned in the uniform of the Southern soldier with the Christian Cross of Saint Andrew firmly in hand with my little brother, Terry Lee. at my side. The real problems for the Black man began with the invasion of our homeland where we were on a path of social vertical mobility that would have been a model for the whole of the civilized world. Yet we now live in a mask of hate gendered in by the unholy acts of so called Reconstruction that continue on to this day as those who hate all things Southern continue by every means necessary to keep Southern Blacks from reclaiming the honor that put them in a place of love with a man that they not only called Master, but family and friend in lieu of the economic institution of slavery placed upon them."

Posted by notabigot (anonymous) on February 25, 2009 at 11:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)

rebel4ever, it wasn't until I started reading about this man that I realized that you were not talking about making a choice about displaying the flag. I did not know that there are people being fired from their jobs and such for displaying that flag. I don't agree with that happening at all. It's just a choice I make because I have friends that got hit with bricks and jailed and fed grits with castor oil for breakfast back in the 60's. But you know, I have never had a conversation with any of them about their feelings about the battle flag of The Confederacy. Perhaps I will.

Posted by ijohnson (anonymous) on February 26, 2009 at 12:30 a.m. (Suggest removal)

((rebel4ever)), thanks for that link. E. K. Edgerton is definitely passionate about that flag and what he believes in and he has tirelessly defended it. I think his websites needs a little more indepth information on him and his journey.

I may not see the Confederate Battle Flag in exactly the same way he does, but I applaud him for his efforts to shed some positive light on it and his efforts to restore it to its original symbolism. If I recall correctly, in the documentary of his journey across the United States, he really caught hell from both sides; most Blacks view the Confederate flag as a symbol of hate, oppression and terrorism, and White racists saw his efforts as interference and a hindrance to their agenda.

Posted by rebel4ever (anonymous) on February 26, 2009 at 9:51 p.m. (Suggest removal)

thank you notabigot and ijohnson. it seems we have had a pretty good conversation, a little heated at times, but overall I think a positive discussion. I guess the things mentioned is what prompted me to make my first post about "Black Tourism" or "Heritage Tourism" and asking why it couldn't just be one effort. Why did we have to segregate it with that label. The "heritage" part should be inclusive of all heritages. We have Native American, Black, Confederate, Italian, Jewish and so on but the only one that is not to be considered is the Confederate or Southern side. Notice, I didn't say White because all races participated in the Confederate States of America failed effort of self-determination. On April 26th, the local Sons of Confederate Veterans Camp will hold a Confederate Memorial Day service, be watching in the Tracing section for the announcement of time, if they will post it. One day to borrow a phrase from Dr. King, "I have a dream" that we will all be proud to be Southern and proud of our own diverse heritage and able to celebrate them without fear of censorship.

Posted by ijohnson (anonymous) on February 27, 2009 at 6:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)

You are right ((rebel4ever)). I love your last sentence, especially because I am very proud to be a Southerner, and I'm proud of my Black and Native American heritage, too. As Southerners, and those proud of our history, we should find common ground and a way to showcase our heritage in a way that casts a positive spotlight on ALL cultures and heritages indigenous to our region. Let's bring it all together and put it out there for the benefit of our town, our region, and our country. Together, we can do this!