Posted by ntzmom (anonymous) on March 28, 2008 at 12:38 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I agree Ben. The distractions alone are a nightmare.
Every school I ever attended were built like Braden, thank goodness! Cause with my attention span, I would have never made it with people distrating me.
The best school I ever attended was a school that had no windows. I learned more there than any other school I attended.

Posted by dangyankee (anonymous) on March 28, 2008 at 12:41 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Gotta hand it to you on this one, Mr. Hillyer - school architecture had never entered my mind as part of the problem, but you're right.

In my hometown there were three school buildings, one housing grades K-4, one grades 5-8, and then the high school. They rebuilt the elementary school not long after I left it (no, not because I was gone, that was just a coincidence), incorporating a lot of those "new ideas" of openness, etc. That would have been about the late 1960s, I think, or just about the time public education began slippery-slope crashing in this country.

I'm going to think on this for awhile, but, again, I'm handing it to you on this piece.

Posted by NtzMom55 (anonymous) on March 28, 2008 at 1:42 a.m. (Suggest removal)

So true, Ben. Unfortunately, I don't think it is a problem that can be fixed anytime soon. What a headache of a campus. So large and widespread.

Posted by shedevil (anonymous) on March 28, 2008 at 5:11 a.m. (Suggest removal)

why not put the schools back like they were before buck west messed them up years ago

Posted by gemccull (Gary McCullars) on March 28, 2008 at 6:33 a.m. (Suggest removal)

"As I turned the corners of a pod Wednesday, I bumped into two students standing on the edge of campus text messaging friends."

I wish the technology had been available in my day! However, new technology should not be a distraction. It should be an aid to the learning process.

"A few steps into a courtyard found students horsing around outside a classroom, providing a distraction for other classes in session. As I made my way to the center of campus, I witnessed two other students making faces in the window of another classroom."

I am not sure that I understand. Are you saying that some students are allowed to roam around the campus if they do not have a class?

Posted by redusmfan (anonymous) on March 28, 2008 at 6:44 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Ok, I agree. I went to every school mentioned in this article.
So, lets move the high school back to Martin. it can be done with some very simple upgrades. Then, Make the Natchez High Campus a place just for football and basketball games....

SIMPLE

Posted by BHillyer (Ben Hillyer) on March 28, 2008 at 7:27 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Gary:

I am reminded of the song "Smoking in the Boy's Room." It used to be that was the only place to hide in high school, because the rest of the school was easily monitored.
If you go to Natchez High School, you will find many, many places students can hide to text message, talk to friends, etc. It is because you can't have enough teachers to keep an eye on the whole campus. And if you did they wouldn't be teaching.

Posted by gemccull (Gary McCullars) on March 28, 2008 at 7:44 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Ben, my high school was an exact replica of the Natchez campus.

It sure was nice to have more elbow room when we changed classes.

As you wrote, my school was touted by school officials as the best thing since sliced bread. Now they are building a new high school to replace it.

It is going to be interesting to see if the old school is torn down.

You did not answer the question about students roaming around. I assume that you witnessed a transition from one class period to another??

Posted by BHillyer (Ben Hillyer) on March 28, 2008 at 7:57 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Gary,

Actually it was in the middle of a period. The situation used to be better when they had security personnel on the campus. But that funding disappeared. Now they have to rely on teachers to do the monitoring. Security is a whole other problem at the school. Can you imagine how easy it would be for someone to do real harm at NHS?

Posted by ratherbefishin (anonymous) on March 28, 2008 at 8:13 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Who remembers Mrs Strahan clapping her hands..shouting "Get off my Grass!!!"...then watching terrified kids scrambling back into their classrooms? There was a time when this design did work...especially during Spring finals when Cole's Creek had warmed up.

Posted by DSGB (anonymous) on March 28, 2008 at 8:17 a.m. (Suggest removal)

If I am not mistaken all campuses do have security personnel, where were they while these kids were just hanging out? I do believe that Natchez High has 3 security guards and a school resource officer assigned to its campus. Where were the administrators during this time, they should have been informed of these students distracting the educational process. I personally think that a new school should be built and the current campus should become a bigger votech campus for Natchez Adams county. It could house adult education,ged training , and all other technical training that would help to produce better citizens.

Ben, if you saw all of this going on I am sure the administrators should have had some knowledge of this also. With a campus like that the administrators should be out walking the campus every chance they get to help make sure these kids are in class. By my count that is 8 people(3 security guards, 5 administrators) that could walk the campus and at some point to make sure every nook and crannie is checked.

Posted by ntz143 (anonymous) on March 28, 2008 at 8:25 a.m. (Suggest removal)

The security guards were probably hanging out in the front office or the counselors' building...that's where they are every time I'm at the school (which is about 3 times a week). I agree with Ben about the architecture...it is a nightmare to monitor. But its more of a problem when the security staff don't do their job. They should be walking that campus, checking bathrooms ALL DAY LONG. And when was the last time the guard at the guard house came all the way to your car and had you to sign in? That campus is a school tragedy waiting to happen.

Posted by ijohnson (anonymous) on March 28, 2008 at 9:02 a.m. (Suggest removal)

((ntz143)), are you suggesting that Natchez High School may experience a school shooting when you say, "That campus is a school tragedy waiting to happen." ??? Fortunately, for NHS and the City of Natchez, that probably wouldn't happen, unless someone from one of the private schools does the shooting -- statistics don't support that scenario for NHS's population. If there were to be a shooting, it would probably be one-on-one -- not a mass killing like we have seen across the country in numerous high schools and colleges.

If anybody has any statistics to support or disprove this, please share.

Posted by npc (anonymous) on March 28, 2008 at 9:12 a.m. (Suggest removal)

npdsucks, I am sure that their is some truth to your complaints, but your login says it all. Just from my perspective, anyone with a logon that is npdsucks, sounds like you have a problem with everyone. Therefore, you take away from your comments and it makes me think that you may be the problem. Hopefully that is not the case.

Posted by Incognito (anonymous) on March 28, 2008 at 9:17 a.m. (Suggest removal)

To be honest, even providing the most state of the art facilty does not guarantee improvements. I know someone who lives in a Chicago suburb where just recently, a brand new school was erected. That person pays $7,000 per year in taxes. Get this, the school is not passing.

It will take a collective effore on behalf of the Natchez community to revamp the school system. Anything else, the house is being built on sand (which of course we all know will wash away during a storm).

Posted by sacw (anonymous) on March 28, 2008 at 10:47 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Ben, I agree with you about kids peeping into windows while others are having class. I have a child that goes to the High School and when I am waiting on her in the afternoon I see alot of kids roaming around and looking into windows. I graduated from South Natchez in 85. We weren't aloud to roam around. You had to be in a class.

Posted by Lilsister (anonymous) on March 28, 2008 at 12:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Ben,
While I may agree with you on some aspects that the building design may be somewhat of a problem today, this is the same design that we had when I taught at South Natchez back in the late seventies. Sure children do change and administrations change, but the things that you described go back to accountability. Every one must be accountable including the children. There is no way that these things should be happening with 5 administrators, security guards, teachers, teacher's assistants etc. There also should be a place away from NHS for those students who cannot conform. In the seventies, we covered our windows half way so that nobody could look out or in. Every teacher stood at his or her door when classes were changing, and the administrators walked the campus at the beginning, middle and ending of each period. Students were not allowed outside the classroom without a pass. Maybe we should go back and try things that worked.

Posted by triscuit (anonymous) on March 28, 2008 at 2:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)

ijohnson, I don't know what ntz143 meant by using the word "tragedy," but I can think of a whole bunch of tragic things that could happen related to poor security that wouldn't involve firearms of any kind.

When I have visited the high school, which I do about once every two weeks, I have only seen a random student or two walking the grounds during class, which is probably not different from any other district. When I visit during the lunch periods, there are students hanging about because they're not required to stay in the cafeteria for the whole period, just as high school students weren't when I was in school a couple of decades ago.

What I like about the article is that it does highlight, even for people like me who are familiar with the campus, how hard it would be to watch every corner. Cameras? Unless someone is going to be hired to watch monitors (and then really watch them) they probably aren't going to prevent a tragedy, just witness it.

When I visit, things that trouble me about the students are the boys' behinds I can see through the shirts (which are tucked into belted britches,) and the way students block sidewalks to visitors during class change times. I'm guessing we're just going to have to live with those two things, although I do wonder if other school districts have successfully battled the droopy drawers.

The things that seriously trouble me are the attitudes of the NASD employees who work in the main offices. Reception is indifferent, as though whatever you have come there for is a big inconvenience. Some of the assistant principals that wander through are not friendly, and often don't make eye contact. Guidance counselors. Don't get me started. I haven't noticed any guidance or counseling going on there. Maybe if we got them some guidance, or some counseling.

Lilsister, although I don't always agree with what you post, I'm very intrigued by the few simple policies you stated here. Cover the windows half-way. Teachers, stand at your doors between classes. Administrators, walk the campus. Very simple, with potential effectiveness significant enough to make it worth trying. Not a cure, but a positive and easy step. I wonder what a review of some forgotten memos about other policies would reveal.

Posted by ijohnson (anonymous) on March 28, 2008 at 2:45 p.m. (Suggest removal)

((Lilsister)) excellent points!! If, when it was South Natchez, these were not issues, then why are there issues now with all this added security? Sure, there are more kids with behaviorial issues but there should be remedies in place to address these issues, too.

A lot of what we are dealing with in the schools is a sign of the times. There is no one answer to these issues . . . the answer lies at the feet of the student, parent(s), teachers and school administrators -- working together for a resolution. Accountability is the major issue at NHS and any other school. However, I do feel that a lot of changes should start in the home with turning off the TV and iPods. Get more involved with your child's school work and get more involved with the school. Then you should see some improvement with your child's grades and behavior. That's just for starters . . . .

During classes, there should not be any students wondering aimlessly in the halls, if so, the hall monitors should address the problem. During the change of classes, teachers should step out of the classroom to ensure that there is order and to minimize horseplay and discourage bad behavior. The ones receiving pay to provide security and ensure order should be required to earn their pay or seek employment elsewhere.

Posted by ijohnson (anonymous) on March 28, 2008 at 3:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Hey ((triscuit)), it appears we are thinking along the same lines! Indifferent, stupid, rude, and non-chalant front-office employees and administrators are a fly in my ointment, too! I HATE the sagging pants and would welcome a new fad that involves pants that fit because this fashion statement has overstayed its welcome.

Simple, common-sense solutions will solve a majority of these problems. As for the bad attitudes in the front office, well, I would suggest that the administrators require every visitor who signs in to complete a questionnaire/survey rating their visit and give a grade to those they have encountered during their visit. The "dated" questionnaire should be dropped into a locked box in the office. The number of names on Visitor's Log Sheet and the number of completed surveys should reflect the same or approximate number. Implementation of this type of customer service procedure should go a long way toward improving some attitudes and holding some folks accountable for their actions and job performance.

Posted by triscuit (anonymous) on March 28, 2008 at 3:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I agree, ijohnson, about the customer service concept. Some organizations that don't have true "customers" or "servers" call the people that they have work relationships "stakeholders," whether they're co-workers, taxpayers, contractors, etc. But the training for making the most of your stakeholder relationships is just Customer Service 101. I wonder how much some old fashioned customer service training would improve these organizations that aren't performing.

Posted by OldGrandDad (anonymous) on March 28, 2008 at 3:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I find this all so dissapointing. I thought that all the school problems would be solved when the kids were forced to wear uniforms. Now that they look like a bunch of fat little nazis, the same problems seem to remain.

Posted by acedog (anonymous) on March 28, 2008 at 4:51 p.m. (Suggest removal)

kids are going to be kids ! its still the educators job the find ways that are going to grab their attention and make learning interesting and exciting. part of the problem is teachers don't care like they use to. i remember when i was in school we had teachers whom live and grew up in the community,so they cared about these kids . now a days the teacher just don't seem to care. and when was the last time we had a supertindant that was from this community?

Posted by redusmfan (anonymous) on March 28, 2008 at 6:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I have read enough to see that everybody agrees that changes need to be made. the first change nees to be in teh attitudes of the students.

Parents, tell your child to go get an education. If not, there is a place being built in Cranfield where they will most likely end up.

Posted by sammohon (anonymous) on March 28, 2008 at 6:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Ben: The building isn't the problem, it's a scapegoat. It was actually awarded for avant garde architectural design in the early 1960's for it's attempt to create, in high school, a collegiate campus setting. Remember that this was an era of low crime, low energy costs and civil responsibility.

The larger problem is the abdication of personal responsibility of the students, parents, teachers, administration and politicians who control our fate. If students aren't faced with SIGNIFICANT disciplinary actions, both at school and at home, then they will run wild.

As for the building itself, it is substantial, well-built, and with modernization could last many more years without a burden of a new school being placed on the taxpayer. Perhaps the single pane windows could be replaced by translucent insulated panels like McLaurin, limiting visibility and enhancing energy conservation, but then teachers would have no knowledge of what is happening outside their windows.

Fewer eyes leads to less security, but unless the teachers are reporting disruptions and the administration is following up what's the point?

As for Columbine style attacks...goes back to the parents again. Negligent parents create the kind of young monsters that cause the tragedies.

Posted by ntz143 (anonymous) on March 28, 2008 at 8:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)

sammohon...I beg to differ about the cause of those tragedies. Even the most attentive parents don't know what's going on in the minds of their children. Mental illness knows no age and many times the people exhibiting those symptoms take great care to appear to the outside world as totally normal. They don't go around "advertising" that they are sociopaths. I assume that you have children...do you know everything going on in their world all the time? probably not...in the best parents don't. As for "a tragedy waiting to happen" that doesn't necessarily mean a school shooting. I could give you many examples of how lives have been changed in the school setting at NHS negatively. Changes that will affect these kids for the rest of their lives. When I was at Natchez High years ago, we feared our butts getting paddled by administrators. Now there is no fear.

Posted by Swapmeet (anonymous) on March 29, 2008 at 1:31 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Having substituted at NHS, I have to agree with Ben's assessment. The campus is a logistical nightmare with innumerable nooks and crannies. Yes, kids run around during class time. I've had to run them away from my windows. I've also been sitting in class during my planning period, and have heard a group of students outside in an open air quasi-hallway. It was more like a breezeway. The point is that they sat there and cursed talking about filthy stuff. I had to run them off. There is a lack of surveillance during classes. I didn't see a whole lot of walking by security.

Posted by LdyBreez (anonymous) on March 29, 2008 at 6:25 a.m. (Suggest removal)

My child goes to NHS and I cringe every day that I have to send her there. Every time I have gone there except maybe once, there has been a fight, it's a wonder students are not knocked down and trampled to death by those running to see the fight.

Student accountability is the big issue here. We have taken away the right of the teachers to doll out consiquences. Now the student realizes it's all talk. There are no dire consiquences that would make children accountable for their actions.

As for the pants thing, if the parents and trachers / administrators were allowed to bust some of those arses when those pants are cought below the waist line, then I bet we would see less of it.

Posted by sammohon (anonymous) on March 29, 2008 at 9:27 a.m. (Suggest removal)

NTZ143: You don't have to beg...LOL, but I believe attentive parents are the first to know that their children are psychopaths, if that is the case. I went to school with some guys that could have certainly been classified that way (one of them died this week at the ripe old age of 49), but peer, parental and social pressure forced them to conform. They know right from wrong, that's why they try to hide and blend in. There is no pressure these days to behave. I can probably get 2 good anecdotes for every bad one you can offer, but face it, any high school effects every child, teenage angst and drama mostly, they will survive if the parents help.

Swapmeet: Where were the regular teachers? Where was the administration? Where was security? Did anyone report the kids to their parents or other authorities? What did you do beyond "running them off"?

LdyBreez: I feel for you and agree that if paddlings were still allowed, pants would be pulled up tight to offer another layer of protection against the paddle...LOL.

Posted by Swapmeet (anonymous) on March 29, 2008 at 9:50 a.m. (Suggest removal)

sammohon: I appreciate your concern. That was last spring and was my first semester in a classroom. I have since been taught some class management techniques through my Teachers Education Program that would have probably cause me to handle the situation differently. I must say though that it seemed to me that it was not welcome for me to report things to the office. I have been at other schools where I am told to let the administration know immediately about unbecoming conduct, and they ensure the situation is resolved with disciplinary action. Back to NHS: I had to make it one of my rules that there would be no cursing in the classroom because the students would come in cursing. I knew which teachers I substituted for allowed it or not because a good percentage of the class would be cursing. I would think to myself, "this has got to be allowed by the teacher if this many people come in using that language". They would also have cell phones and ipods out listening to them and would say "Well Mr./Mrs. so and so lets me do it". I was appalled to say the least. Something fundamental is going to have to change for there to be an improvement.

Posted by sammohon (anonymous) on March 29, 2008 at 10:06 a.m. (Suggest removal)

What, in particular, is going to have to change? Parents teaching their kids that it is not tolerable to curse, to have cell phones and ipods at school? Teachers doing their job of being mentors and not just making a union-backed pay check? This is all about personal responsibility on the part of the student, the parent, the teacher, the administrator and the politician! Everyone must do their part.

Posted by Swapmeet (anonymous) on March 29, 2008 at 10:13 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I agree with you wholeheartedly sammohon.

Posted by sammohon (anonymous) on March 29, 2008 at 10:47 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Swapmeet: Thanks, but what about the building itself? As I stated, it was well designed, well built, hasn't changed much since the 60's and has served well...except for lack of energy efficiency. What has really changed? Not the building, it's the people...entitled, undisciplined, narcisistic, callous! The problem with Ben's observation is that it deflects responsibility from those who have failed, which is exactly what they want. I wish we could get a return-on-investment from the school system like we have from this building.

Posted by gemccull (Gary McCullars) on March 29, 2008 at 10:50 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I have been a proponent for a better public education system in Natchez. We should be leading the state if not nation in public education. It should be so good that the private schools in the area should be nothing more than a memory!

Oh, no, we seem to enjoy wringing our hands, rubbing our head and scratching our butt instead of addressing the issue of public education.

Posted by sammohon (anonymous) on March 29, 2008 at 10:58 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Gary: You are absolutely correct...I'm a product of a local private school only because the public schools couldn't teach what was necessary for me to be successful in college and in life...it's really not fair to the parents of the kids in private school since they have to pay twice for an adequate education. It's not fair to the parents who can't afford the option of private school. We throw so much money at the problem the system should have been a gem long ago.

Posted by gemccull (Gary McCullars) on March 29, 2008 at 12:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)

If the past newspaper accounts and the comments to it's stories/articles are correct, we are so involved in the "blame game" that we are paralyzed for any possible change.

Posted by sammohon (anonymous) on March 29, 2008 at 12:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Lady...npc seems to be right...you're part of the problem, not the solution...while I have no doubt you care for your children and I agree that if they are doing well they should be rewarded, your apparent attitude that your kids are always right (entitled) and the authorities are always wrong is reflected in your kids...it gives them permission to misbehave...they need to be taught to respect not defile the authorities, be they parents, teachers, police, elders, pastors, etc. Parenting is NOT making excuses for your children to defy reasonable authority.

BTW...help your children with their spelling, grammar, syntax and typing you might learn something other than what you've indicated you've learned so far.

Posted by Swapmeet (anonymous) on March 29, 2008 at 1:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)

sammohon: What I am trying to say about the design of the building is that there are a bunch of nooks and crannies for the kids to hide in. The administrators and teachers can't help if kids come from homes where they have no discipline or moral fiber instilled in them. Saying that, adm. and teachers would have a much easier job of having control over the movement of the students during the school day if they were in the traditional classroom-lined hallways of old. This would allow for more instructional time that would otherwise be wasted on searching the campus for a rogue student. I'm not saying it's the designs fault, but rogue students who have no discipline are exploiting it. In that case, I say take that advantage away from them.

Posted by sammohon (anonymous) on March 29, 2008 at 3:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)

It's called "boots on the ground"...back in the day it was the coaches who roamed the sidewalks, restrooms and nooks and crannies...and they had a paddle in hand!

Posted by sammohon (anonymous) on March 29, 2008 at 4:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Ben: It's amazing to me how much you look like my youngest brother in your posted photo...might I suggest you consider plastic surgery...LOL

Posted by ardvark (anonymous) on March 29, 2008 at 4:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"A recent trip to Natchez High School reminded me of the residual consequences of bright ideas that fail to live up to their expectations."
_________________

It's not the buildings fault. Disrespectful, lawless, hateful, ignorant children will find a way to misbehave even if you put them in a four by five cell.
I say ignorant because their parents haven't taught them any better.
I guess in my day the kids respected the limits and accepted the consequences. I do know there was no need for security back when teachers and administrators demanded and got respect.

SNAHS class of '85

Posted by niderbip (anonymous) on March 29, 2008 at 5:22 p.m. (Suggest removal)

you could have good schools built like mud huts IF the kids had good parents.

Lousy parents = lousy schools. it ain't the building; never was.

Posted by sammohon (anonymous) on March 29, 2008 at 5:53 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Am I vindicated?

Posted by utopia (anonymous) on March 29, 2008 at 6:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)

three words: Thompson High School. Would have reduced potential over-crowding and minimized distractions. And what does text messaging have to do with architecture???

Posted by Swapmeet (anonymous) on March 29, 2008 at 6:58 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I hate to speak for someone utopia, but I think he meant that because of the openess of the campus, the kids can text more than if they were in an enclosed hallway. I'm not saying the argument floats water. I'm just guessing as to what he meant.

Posted by sammohon (anonymous) on March 29, 2008 at 7:25 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Thompson School was untenable...it was built quickly and not very well...I know, i have done some work on it...as for the text messaging, my kids check their phones at the door...texting is bad in that it precludes verbal face to face communication and distracts from family communion.