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New condos coming to Main Street
Published Saturday, June 28, 2008
NATCHEZ — Though the former First Baptist Church on Main Street got clearance to be developed into condos in February, it stands undisturbed — not for long.
Judy Weatherly, developer with Dream Homes, Inc, in Marrero, said construction work should begin as soon as the fall or winter.
She said several things have served as an impediment to starting construction.
First of all, she’s using “green” material, which are recycled materials.
“I used products that have been used before,” Weatherly said.
This includes steel and Styrofoam for the infrastructure, she said.
“The steel is recycled from old steel and the Styrofoam is environmentally friendly,” she said.
Because of the use of these products, the ordering process is longer, she said.
Also, she said she’s been working on a lot of projects in New Orleans, which is keeping her tied up.
“I’m rebuilding quite a bit of New Orleans right now,” she said. “I’ve rebuilt probably 75 of them since the storm.”
She’s trying to get to a stopping point now because she’s ready to tackle the First Baptist Church project, she said.
The plans are already done, however, save for the actual condominiums.
For the whole building, though, they are ready, she said.
This includes redoing the decrepit roof and starting the courtyard that will sit in the middle of the building.
The 18 condo spaces are planned out, but what the actual condos will look like is up to those who purchase them.
“I’ll be preparing the spaces for the building,” she said.
But buyers can come in and dictate how many rooms or bathrooms they want, Weatherly said.
“It’s an individual thing,” she said.
She said she has no doubt the condos will sell, and sell fast.
“I believe they’ll all be sold in the next year and a half or so,” Weatherly said.
She said once construction begins, it’ll take about 18 months to complete the $2 million project.
“I’ve done all the hard parts, the things that take the longest, the preservation approval and all that,” Weatherly said.
Several stories tall, with its own parking to be included, the development not only boasts a courtyard, it will also have stained glass windows.
Weatherly called the future development “absolutely gorgeous.”
“It’s going to be a landmark
In February, the developers were removing stained glass windows from the exterior of the building sans approval by the Natchez Preservation Commission.
A stop work order was issued and Weatherly came before the commission to get approval to do any work on the building.
The development was approved but if work isn’t begun on the building in the next six months, the approval will expire and Weatherly will have to appear before the commission once more, according to the Natchez Preservation Ordinance.
Comments
Posted by sayitlouder (anonymous) on June 28, 2008 at 7:41 a.m. (Suggest removal)
ain't going to happen. all talk, no action. historical people should have not allowed this to happen.
Posted by redusmfan (anonymous) on June 28, 2008 at 9:12 a.m. (Suggest removal)
This is a nice dream, hence the name of teh company, but it will give plenty of oppurtunity to historical people to stop construction on each and everyone of the "individual" condos inside of teh structure. I believe this project will have more stumbling blocks than a preschool room after the lights go out....
Posted by sammohon (anonymous) on June 28, 2008 at 9:38 a.m. (Suggest removal)
redusmfan...I'm pretty sure that the Historic Preservation Commission, the only local "historical" people having the power to shut down work, won't have jurisdiction over the condo unit interiors.
Interior jurisdiction, by the Mississippi Department of Archives and History, would only come into play if the development has applied for Mississippi tax credits based on the Department of the Interior's historic preservation guidelines, which would address such things as original wood flooring and such. Even then I don't think they can shut down the work. I think they can only deny the tax credits due to violations of the guidelines.
I will make a prediction though...based on the past behavior of the developer...the project will not see completion and will continue to deteriorate until they are forced to sell. By that time the building will be beyond rescue and we'll have another empty block downtown after the demolition.
I'll also make another prediction...EnKiKur will be here sometime today shouting from the rooftop of the First Baptist Church Project, that condos are part of a UN conspiracy to bring socialism to Natchez...LOL.
Posted by NatchezEnema (anonymous) on June 28, 2008 at 11:40 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Good one Sam, heheheheh, but I like enkikur. He makes me think about storing food in a hole in my back yard. Better safe than sorry these days. This is a pie in the sky deal though. I wouldn't spend a dime of my money fixing anything historic downtown Natchez.
Posted by fire39212 (anonymous) on June 28, 2008 at 12:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I agre with you NE......I always enjoy reading Enkikur's stuff also.....He makes you think outside the box that's for sure...
Posted by fire39212 (anonymous) on June 28, 2008 at 12:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)
opps... agree
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 28, 2008 at 12:37 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I'll let Daniel Pouzzner, who identifies himself as a bourgeois socialist through what he calls clear-eyed analysis of himself, speak for me on this one.
"Since the time of Rousseau, utopianism — particularly, of the socialist variety — has been eroding and undermining Western civilization like so many angry ocean waves. Utopian socialism — by which I mean chiefly the idea that human welfare can be divorced from economic and biological reality — has for so long been a part of the political landscape of the West that most people have accepted it as the cultural embodiment of an idea that is fundamental to the world"
"Each branch of the Edenic movement has its own characteristic deontological degeneration: libertarians tend to believe that that which is permitted should be done and therefore that disapproval is tantamount to proscription, anarchists that everything is permitted and nothing is required, fascists that that which is permitted is required and that which is not required is forbidden, and socialists that no one can be required to take responsibility for himself but that anyone who is able must be required to take responsibility for others."
"The free market, with its component rights of private property and enterprise, is a competitive system that meets the same instinctual appetites as the system of warfare and coercive subjugation that dominated most earlier civilizations, but channels those aspects of human nature into productive, constructive efforts. Abolition of the free market — a central objective of utopian socialism — does not abolish the instinct to compete, it simply forces that instinct to exhaust itself in warfare, subjugation, and corruption. This is amply confirmed by the history and present condition of actual utopian socialist regimes. It is symptomatic of the utopians' utter arrogance that they believed, and still believe, that their social constructions will be exempt from the dictates of nature."
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 28, 2008 at 12:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)
The problem remains that conservative socialists like Sam do not even realize they are socialists. His championing of the aggression against Islam is just another expression of fascist utopianism seeking to expel the intruders from Eden.
Sam doesn't realize that he is a socialist because all he knows about socialism is that he is not supposed to like it, even while being led to participate vehemently by the source of his understanding, his government education and the totally unbiased education he receives from Rush Limbaugh and the informercials for the new right he consumes in daily doses of Fox News.
The discussion of socialism can never be engaged intelligently on this blog because so many are like Sam and do not understand what socialism is and how it affects them and further, they have no wish to learn through intelligent discourse.
Sam must mock, as all socialist do, not having well formed personal principal to stand on:
"The influence of Edenism has broadly corrupted the Western academy, notably including the judiciary and journalism. (See, e.g., “Forbidden Knowledge”, from Science 2005-Feb-11.) The scientific method of Renaissance and Enlightenment naturalism, wherein intellectuals work in service to demonstrable truth and utility, has been largely replaced by the utopian zeal of Enlightenment idealism, wherein thoughts, programs, and results, are accepted or rejected, continued or arrested, published or buried, based on their harmony with Edenic principles. Having created a market for intellectual accreditation, and having secured a monopoly position therein, the academy now systematically and zealously imposes this degenerate idealism on the world's youth, and often demands outrageous fees for the privilege of their sanctification."
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 28, 2008 at 12:54 p.m. (Suggest removal)
"Utopians are wishful thinkers par excéllence. They believe in building houses out of ostensibly good intentions. They choose their actions because (1) the immediate results please them, and (2) they find within their beliefs a rationale for the actions. They believe the rationales make their actions reasonable, they avoid countervailing thoughts (in particular, countervailing beliefs), and they expect others to do the same. When substantively criticized, they often condemn the critics as “name callers” engaging in “personal attacks” — utopians' flimsy proxies whereby they condemn judgement per se (evidently too obvious a self-contradiction to be spoken aloud, or thought, plainly and consciously). They cultivate and practice an enduring denial of the many obvious faults and failures apparent whenever and wherever their programs are put into practice. They persist in their rationally insupportable convictions in large part because the expectation of sublime reward is itself pleasurable, and doubting one's cherished convictions is inherently painful"
Sam is just such a person, believing his favored form of socialism, militant fascism, will lead to a utopia free of terror, and further, this militant action is not only wanted but must be done. Just as Pouzzner observes, it is very painful to hold an irrational conviction and then to be charged with preserving it in order to avoid the pain of realization.
Posted by notabigot (anonymous) on June 28, 2008 at 1:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Good heavens. EnKiKur is exhibiting symptoms of about 3 mental illnesses that I can think of. He is obsessed with this doom and gloom, devil behind every corner, the world, The U.S.A specifically, is going to hell in a handbasket stuff and spouts it so much that he is sucking the hope out of his life, and yours if you continue to listen to him. He is merely reading on the internet and then taking over every conversation by passing on to you what he reads. We all know that the world will follow a certain progression, already laid out for us, until it's demise. There is only so much a person can do about it, such as educate yourself and vote, support PAC's, write letters to your representatives at the local, state, and national level. He lost me when he admitted he doesn't vote. It's interesting how he has influenced some of the people on here who used to be uplifting and hopeful to the degree that they are beginning to sound a little bit bitter and jaded. The world has it's problems, some of them ugly beyond belief. But some things are majestically moving and beautiful. It's best if you do what you can about the ugly, but emphasize the beautiful. Otherwise you will lose your hope and your joy. The fourth of July is coming up. Not once in my childrn's lifetime has there been an Indepence Day Celebraion where everybody lays their differences aside and celebrates the fact that we have, for the moment, more freedom than anybody else in the world. It has been a long time since there was a rip roaring, flag waving, grateful, hopeful, joyful celebration of our freedom. This freedom we have was won at a great cost. I want to celbrate it, and I want everybody else to celebrate it with me at least once so my children can see it. All of that being said, It's summer, my time of year, and that leaves me very little time for the internet, so I'll be back come winter time. In the meantime, you guys be careful about what you buy into. I don't want to come back in November and find out ya'll are all wearing tin foil on your heads so "they" can't lilsten to your thoughts.
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 28, 2008 at 1:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)
That is what I mean notabigot. No intellectual analysis of any statements I make, only libel and characterization. No understanding that the massive wealth redistribution of wealth represented by our 9 trillion dollar national debt is the economic heart and soul of socialism.
How is understanding of a thing doom and gloom?
For someone who claims to be not a bigot you seem strongly biased against people who think and read. Were you capable and willing of reading Pouzzner's entire treatise you would be better served than maligning me.
Hope and joy is not based on blindness, but on acceptance of all that is.
Forgive me for being intellectually curious enough to attempt to understand the substance of America and not just accept the shallow symbolism of it. What you promote notabigot, flagwaving and platitudes, while well intentioned, are what Plato would not have allowed in his Republic. He warned against "flowery words" and the creations of artists as appealing to the emotional nature and leaving out entirely the rational nature.
Posted by sayitloud (anonymous) on June 28, 2008 at 2:51 p.m. (Suggest removal)
SAM!!!! Get him!!
EnKiKur is a smarta--
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 28, 2008 at 3:11 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Yeah, but a smart smart.... sayitloud. Let me hear you make an argument. As long as we are titting and tatting I might as well show you for what you are as well.
Posted by sayitloud (anonymous) on June 28, 2008 at 3:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Bring it on!!! You attack everyone on here who you do not AGREE with.
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 28, 2008 at 3:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)
You haven't offered an argument. I do not attack, I present my point of view and my evidence.
Pick some point you think I am wrong on and let us discuss it.
Posted by sayitloud (anonymous) on June 28, 2008 at 3:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)
You just attacked Sam! And for what? Oh yeah, he stood up to you. YOU are mental.
Posted by sayitloud (anonymous) on June 28, 2008 at 3:54 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I'm done with you, go attack yourself.
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 28, 2008 at 3:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Sam attacked me first by implying, as he likes to do, that I am a conspiracy theorist when I can back up everything I say. I've told him before that if he mocks me, I will mock him. Those are the rules of our game. If you want some too, offer an argument. At least Sam has a point of view. I don't recall you every having one someone else didn't have first.
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 28, 2008 at 4 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Well, if you retreat I win. Are you just going to give up like that? That is not very sporting of you. You might have swayed me to your point of view if you had tried.
Posted by rushinghjr (anonymous) on June 28, 2008 at 5:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)
?
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 28, 2008 at 6:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)
At any rate, to comment on the article, I don't see why Sam and the Preservation Commission and Miller & Co. are so down on this project. This is a perfect example of high density mixed use New Urbanism development that can greatly increase everyone's property values- but only if everyone can break out of their small ideas and embrace some larger ones for the good of all.
Ms. Weatherly embodies the entreprenurial spirit and she deserves our support. She has shown herself to be environmentally conscious in her use of recycled steel and friendly foam so she is doing her part to make the world a better place.
Personally, for the good of the city, I wish the city fathers and mothers had the vision to invited DPZ to come to Natchez and guide development. DPZ is expert in the field of town planning and they do it in a wholistic way, through conducting public meetings where all who wish can have a say in how the town is developed. This gives all the residents of a town to support particular projects they like through personal investment that would be a boon to developers who share their vision for a better, more people friendly town.
The way things are going, lower middle class and lower class citiznes are going to be pushed out of the most precious part of town, the center of town. Duany Plater-Zyberk could design a nice HUD project for town that would give lower class citizens a stake in their own town, and they could also design more affordable condo units for the lower middle class. Most people can't afford 350 to 400 thousand dollar units, though it is good some can.
DPZ could also fix all the code problems Natchez suffers from by tailoring a SmartCode for the city. One advantage would be the precoding of a choice of dwellings and other buildings that would speed the construction process and end the miscommunications and bad feelings we've seen result.
Natchez has to change, the change should be managed in such a way the improvement is undeniable. For the same amount of money that will be spent in a piecemeal fashion the town could be developed in comprehensive, affordable for all way.
I hope others feel the same way I do. I would like to have a voice in how both Natchez and Vidalia develop and I don't feel I have one now. Join me in inviting DPZ to visit and make some recommendations. Once a town is built it is very difficult to change it. DPZ has the experience and the vision to guide both sides of the river into a shining example of the best New Urbanism has to offer.
Posted by rushinghjr (anonymous) on June 28, 2008 at 6:11 p.m. (Suggest removal)
My "question mark" is a Conservative One! Let the Company build their "Dream Condos"! and follow the Ordinance! The City of Natchez, in the form of the NPC, must work with these developers, remember they are spending their monies in the future of Natchez! We need to grow!
Posted by gottabehappy (anonymous) on June 28, 2008 at 7:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)
leave EnKiKur alone yal, he is busy doing nothing but sitting around waiting on someone in need of a GLASS REPAIR!
Posted by sammohon (anonymous) on June 28, 2008 at 7:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)
EnK...militant fascist?...conservative socialist?...lil ole me?...LOL, those are good ones...in reality I'm actually a closet pragmatice Machiavellian...sneaky, eh?...you only thought I was a soft touch. Seems at least one of my predictions came true.
You're a bit hypocritical aren't you, you seem to be behaving like the Utopians you derogate, i.e. "avoiding countervailing beliefs", "condemning critics", "name calling", and "engaging in personal attacks".
You stated that you can back up everything you say, but the reality is that you can't...you take reality and your personal intelligence, add your perusals through some very marginal websites, distill it with your personal bias, stir in a large helping of overactive imagination and then invent a web to hold all this together creating a "them vs. us", or more correctly, "them and us vs. you", mentality...I agree with Notabigot to some degree...you're a bit scary.
I think the prime problem I, and others on this site have with you isn't your opinions or your knowledge or your research, it's mostly your overbearing arrogance about your intellect and the filibustering you do. Just reduce the verbiage a little and you'll find many more people willing to engage in a CONVERSATION rather than read a bombastic monologic diatribe. Be more positive, offer realistic solutions, not sarcastic condemnations of everything from Eden to Armageddon.
You claim to be open-minded enough to be swayed by a good, logical argument, but you haven't displayed any capacity to do so. I can only assume that your arrogance precludes anyone else from being capable of putting together a rationale worthy of your consideration.
Posted by rushinghjr (anonymous) on June 28, 2008 at 7:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Sam-i must be a Social what?
Posted by sayitloud (anonymous) on June 28, 2008 at 7:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)
oh snap...THAT'S who EnK is!?
Posted by sammohon (anonymous) on June 28, 2008 at 7:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)
rushinghjr...nice to hear from you again...I hope my prediction above wasn't misconstrued...I certainly hope that the project procedes and succeeds, I just have some doubts about this particular developer based on their past actions and inactions.
While EnK, in his comment directly above, was being very sarcastic, I think that the adoption of the SmartCode and tailoring it to our situation could be a very good thing versus the mish-mash of ordinances we now have. EnKiKur misrepresents SmartCode, but if you understand the rationale for it, it makes perfect common sense and is not at all socialist as he claims. He is just trying to frighten people into his world of paranoia.
Posted by sammohon (anonymous) on June 28, 2008 at 7:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)
rushinghjr...you're a...a...a...Social deviant, that's it...ROTFLMAO...just kidding my friend.
Posted by sammohon (anonymous) on June 28, 2008 at 7:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)
sayitloud...I know who EnK is, and I pretty sure gottabehappy isn't correct...go back into some of our other blogs and his real identity can be found.
Posted by rushinghjr (anonymous) on June 28, 2008 at 7:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Marty or the NPC needs to take care of the Iran problem before Israel does! Boy! Natchez would make the headlines then!
Posted by sayitloud (anonymous) on June 28, 2008 at 8:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Thanks Sam, scared me for a minute.
Posted by redusmfan (anonymous) on June 28, 2008 at 8:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I will just wait and see what happens. I do not believe they will be finished and I believe that it will be a host of reason giving and fingers will be pointed back and forth.
What is the latest on the tamale place in Natchez? Are they sellng any tamales yet?
Posted by sayitloud (anonymous) on June 28, 2008 at 9 p.m. (Suggest removal)
not EVEN red!
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 28, 2008 at 9:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Neither of your predictions have come true Sam. The one you attached to me was that I would be shouting that the condo project is a UN conspiracy to bring socialism to Natchez. I said nothing of the sort. I just offered some excerpts from a scholarly treatise critiquing socialism by a man who identifies himself as a socialist, and drew some parallels between his writings and you. I recommend you read the whole treatise since you are so ill informed about what socialism is. You should hear about it from one.
Between the beliefs you express as yours, and my beliefs there is little countervailance. You just don't see it. Neither did I engage in name calling; I use you, as a badly informed conservative giving allegiance to those now in control of the Republican Party for you feel the believe as you do (they don't, they don't even call themselves conservative) as an example of a condition Pouzzner explains so well: the inability of modern Americans imbued with socialist beliefs to identify those beliefs as socialist.
If anyone wishes not to read what I write, they are free to follow their wishes. But I know many of you who decry me want to read what I write.
Now, find something specific you think I can't back up and maybe you can win one of our arguments, or maybe I will let you win one.
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 28, 2008 at 9:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)
With the silliness dispensed with I assure you, Sam, that there is nothing sarcastic in my wanting DPZ to guide development in Natchez. In fact, I have already been in touch with them asking how to make that happen.
How many times do I have to say, in how many ways do I have to say it, that I believe Duany's concepts to be valid and desirable concepts for building a city? You think I am saying things I am not because you are not reading closely, when you read what I write you are too busy formulating your next batch of attempted insult.
Duany, socialist or not, can save us from some current aspects of development in Natchez and Vidalia that I do not agree with, such as the appropriation of the best spots by developers and the consequent pushing away of the lower classes. Duany has enough sense to realize that doing this creates more social problems than it solves. I think better than having projects out on MLK, where the poor have access only to the poor, it would be far better if they had space in town, like they used to, where they could walk to work, where they could be part of instead of separate from the local mainstream.
Are the poor on MLK because they are black, or because they are poor, or both? And what of the poor whites, also pushed away from downtown. The government development money subsidizing recent development is intended to benefit all, not just those wealthy enough to control the politiciians.
Just becase I do not like the socialist philosphies of the green movement does not mean I disagree with all their goals. The major part I disagree with is the desire to control the earth, as Maurice Strong voiced in his "Earth, Inc." interview.
I think there are sound reasons for New Urbanism not related to lonely, forgetful polar bears and sad, brave little penguins who can still dance who must travel to Washington to ask the President to make the American middle class quit destroying the earth.
At this point I think the involvement of DPZ is highly desirable.
Posted by sammohon (anonymous) on June 28, 2008 at 10:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Amazing...EnK...you can't even be consistent in your commentary...a day or two ago you were up in arms about DPZ and SmartCode...it's like arguing with my wife...there's no way to win because the target keeps moving....sometimes I think we're not that far apart, philosophically, and then you call ME confused...take a look in the mirror.
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 28, 2008 at 10:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)
No, I am entirely consistent. I said in the beginning I think New Urbanism is a good way to design a city. Groups of walkable neighborhoods are what I grew up with and like.
What I speak against is the given reasoning behind sustainable development, which is based on a lie of impending environmental peril and the attempt being made by the creators of the movement to capitalize on the non-existent problem they are promoting through the establishment of carbon exchanges and carbon caps. I speak against the attempt to create a new false goddess religion; this is based on a false premise because it always was that religion was based on both a masculine and feminine aspect of deity. I speak against the long voiced desire of the environmental movement to drastically alter the earth's population, as if they have some right to do this.
Just because I realize Duany is a socialist doesn't mean I don't recognize his artistic talent and perhaps even genius and the utilitarianism of his ideas... though to be truthful I do not believe these ideas to be solely his.
The fact that I support the material aspects of New Urbanism changes none of my other beliefs.
Posted by msfixit (anonymous) on June 28, 2008 at 10:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)
EnK, I've been reading your posts for quite some time now and have not yet figured out what your basic social/political philosopy is. At first I thought Libertarian, but you say no. Just out of curiosity, do you follow the Objectivist School of Ayn Rand, et al.?
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 28, 2008 at 10:40 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Look Sam, Natchez has 30 million in debt. The convention center alone, if interest on that debt does not rise above 4.75 percent, will cost the city another 30 million over the life of the debt.
Gross inefficiency is being practiced and my tax dollars are paying for it. While you and I pay, those favorably positioned profit through our subsidy.
DPZ understands efficiency because they have the best minds available behind them. You don't get better than Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and Oxford. Why not take advantage of the best when it is available?
In addition, some of my arguments were a testing of response, and some were just a matter of having fun with argument. Had I seriously wanted you to have an unfavorable opinion of DPZ I would have argued from the other side because I know that argument too.
I will go so far as to say that I would like to see the downtown area of Natchez closed to car traffic, and open only to small two wheel vehicles requiring no license, delivery trucks, city busses, and bicycles.
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 28, 2008 at 10:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I am very fond of Ayn Rand msfixit, though it has been a very long time since I read her work.
Libertarianism in this country has been subverted, so no, I won't claim that. Plus, there are some utopian elements to libertarianism I don't like, though there are some elements I do like.
Posted by iluvntz2 (anonymous) on June 28, 2008 at 11:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I read in the story that she is planning on 18 condos. That seems like a lot for that building, even more so if the owners can choose how many rooms and bathrooms. What do the rest of you think?
On another note, EnK, for some reason I thought you lived in Vidalia????
Posted by mike8427 (anonymous) on June 28, 2008 at 11:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)
EnK - In one of your post above you related our national debt to socialism (which I assume you are against). When I made a comment a few weeks ago, about how I was disgusted with the nations debt, and the govts spending, you accused me of being a democrat. You seem to be going back and forth on your opinion on govt debt spending.
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 29, 2008 at 12:44 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I vaguely recall that mike, but I think I thought you were a democrat because of something not related to the debt. I never play around about the debt. That debt is a greater threat to our freedom than the middle east.
iluvntz, we aren't supposed to think about traditional state and county boundaries anymore. we live in a regional system now.
Posted by iluvntz2 (anonymous) on June 29, 2008 at 9:46 a.m. (Suggest removal)
"Gross inefficiency is being practiced and my tax dollars are paying for it." This is why I questioned your residency.
Back to the condos, does anyone else think that 18 condos is doable in that building? And from the looks of the building, she better get started real quick and put a roof on it or she won't have anything to start with.
Posted by sammohon (anonymous) on June 29, 2008 at 10:33 a.m. (Suggest removal)
EnK...I'm in concurrence with you on the support of New Urbanism, SmartCode, Duany and DPZ in so far as you put it the "material aspects". I likewise concur that there are some socialist ideals that make me uncomfortable about them...so we are on common ground here.
I am also in concurrence regarding the Natchez debt. I happen to have had a birdeye view of the incursion of the debt at the time it happened and was horrified and warned about it then...it probably helped cost my livelihood in Natchez since the powers at the time didn't like what I was saying.
I don't think that shutting down all of downtown to automobile traffic is really pragmatic, but I think that it can and should be restricted. Business owners should be required to park remotely from their businesses on the primary CBD arteries and cross streets.
Main Street and others could be narrowed to remove parking to sidestreets and parking lots allowing for more room for pedestrians, trees and other planting, landscape furnishings, cafe tables, etc.
Vicksburg has a little street, I forget the name, where this has been done all the way to restoring the brick paving. It's on top of the bluff just above the casinos and just below the Vicksburg auditorium. It is delightful and well populated with tourists and local alike. Some streets could be totally blocked in the evenings, ala Bourbon Street and Beale Street to enhance night life pedestrianism.
So I think we have found some comity, but your playing of devil's advocate, although I can't protest too much as I do so myself on occasion, sometimes leads one to think that you actually believe some of the outlandish things you present, therefore, one has difficulty discerning when you're serious and when you're not. As a result you're taken seriously all the time which can beneficially stir the pot, but can also detract from the otherwise civil conversation.
I would also remind you that you can be a bit long winded...how do I know?...because I am too...as evidenced in this comment...LOL. I have to constantly remind myself that people don't want to read tomes in this format.
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 29, 2008 at 12:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)
iluvntz, if the condos were 1000 sq ft, 18 of them would fit with 12000 sq ft left over for other uses. It doesn't seem possible looking at the buillding, but it is possible to do.
Sam, I like to read tomes. So I don't care if others do or not, if they don't they are free to skip them and read the other things. I think what people object to is that they do read the long things and then get mad about what is there but not wanting to take the time to respond to the things they don't like they just find fault with the length of what was written.
Curiously enough, people spend hours on cell phones talking little pleasant nonsenses.
Posted by sammohon (anonymous) on June 29, 2008 at 3:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)
EnK...I couldn't find any info on the building's square footage can you please give me a reference? If it is indeed 30,000sf, it could be done using your scenario of 1,000sf per unit, but the existing square footage would have to actually be usable and 1,000sf units are pretty small for luxury condos.
I like tomes too, but I find that most people don't regardless of the content...it's always best to be concise.
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 29, 2008 at 4:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Look up the earlier story in the Democrat from when the project was first announced. In that story it was said the building was 30000 sq ft. It doesn't look like it, but I guess that means over three floors.
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 29, 2008 at 4:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)
That would be 350.00 per sq foot, not out of line with this type of development and the people interested in the underlying philosophy.
Go check out www.lostrabbit.com and go over the map and the prices for the lots and houses....check out how the town square is set up. Doesn't look like any cars are going to be in that town square.
Posted by sammohon (anonymous) on June 29, 2008 at 6:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)
EnK...I called myself looking before, but still haven't found where the overall square footage was indicated. $350.00/sf is about the median for this type of development, the range is usually between $250.00/sf to $500.00/sf depending on the wealth of the clientele, location and amenities of the condos.
I was just wondering if the square footage of 30,000 is actually all usable for condo purposes. Additionally, there will be people who will want less than 1,000sf and people who will want more, say 1,500 or even 2,000...makes it more of a challenge to simply divide the building into evenly apportioned units.
Lost Rabbit is a wonderful concept that has actually been tried before in many differing forms and to varying degrees of success. Levittown NY comes to mind, as does Sea Ranch CA...the concept of letting people both live and work in small, intimate communities with all of the amenities of both rural and urban environments.
There is a community down here called Diamondhead, which is similar. The people who live there love it except that they have to travel 30 minutes to work either to Gulfport, Long Beach or Slidell. They love their wandering country road type lanes. I went to a friend's house one time and got hopelessly lost, which is quite an acheivement to get an architect lost in a development for which he has seen the plans and had good directions...LOL.
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 29, 2008 at 9:51 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Here is another DPZ project www.alysbeach.com
You can get a starter house in Alys Beach for 2 million.
While the concept seems good there is something about these sorts of developments that is unsettling to me. One is, where the heck do the people get the money to live in them?
And what would a small intimate community for people who make at and below the median Mississippi income look like?
Somehow, too, the presentation of such communities does not excite in me the urge to have. So I am stuck with believing this is a good way to build a town and realizing I would never want to live there! Hehe.
To live in such a town one must have certain desires; in the same way that choices of dwellings are packaged the fulfillment of the requisite desires is packaged. How did it come to be that desires could be so standardized communities would be built to satisfy them? Sailing, golfing, playing fields for the kids...all very expensive things, the hallmark of culture... all with a very corporate feeling about them. A kind of approved, regimented system of recreation.
Notice how heavenly Alys Beach looks.
Posted by sammohon (anonymous) on June 29, 2008 at 11:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)
EnK...everyone isn't an avowed hermit as you are...who cares where the money comes from as long as it's legally gained...it's the similarity of the folk's desires that makes these communities desirable to those that can afford it.
I had the opportunity to work on a mixed community apartment community in Georgia...I didn't have the chance to see the end result over time, but no one, including the developers believed that the Federal government dollars poured into this project would actually work...they just didn't believe that the poor and middle class could or would live together in a healthy neighborhood as the utopian ideal would have it be.
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 30, 2008 at 12:31 a.m. (Suggest removal)
That is a good point you make about the Georgia project. I'd like to look up that project and see what happened if you'll pass the name along to me.
I think these new sustainable communities are a paradox partly because of the cost of living within them. A 400 thousand dollar condo or a 2 million dollar mini-mansion represent a client with a large carbon footprint, to use the terminology of the movement. Yet, living in a community calling itself sustainable takes away part of that environmental sin.
Duany does intend, as he says, to communicate a message through architecure. New urbanism is his appeal to the middle class he claims is the problem with the world's climate to overcome old ideas and replace them with new, more socialistic ideas. (Don't over-react to this statement, try to think of socialism not as a condemnation but as a description) The ideas that must be overcome to fulfill the utopian idea, or to return to Eden as Pouzzner says, are chiefly class related.
In truth, the poor don't want to live among the richer, and the richer don't want to live among the poorer because they value different things. Yet, what better way to ease the tension of distinctions than having classes mix? This is the reasoning behind the revolutionaries who advocated war as the most rapid agent of social change and elimination of class distinction. War forces everyone into poverty and struggle for life itself.
I relate this last paragraph to bring something to your attention. A Carnegie study in 1913 commissioned to ascertain the most effective method for bringing about rapid social change proclaimed war as that method.
After WW I, and going into WW II, even the academics and industrialists were shocked by the carnage, so a new idea was considered. Bringing people together against a common enemy is the essence and leveling affect of war, so what if the people could be made to believe that their was something that was a threat to all? It was decided very early by one segment that the environmental abuse of industrialism could be used as a rallying point for all. This is how socialism came to be tied into the green movement.
Posted by texasranger (anonymous) on June 30, 2008 at 8:22 a.m. (Suggest removal)
federal dollars are poured into a lot of places that don,t work...enter FEMA...OPEC sells oil for $136.00 a barrel.
OPEC nations buy U.S. grain at $7.00 a bushel.
Solution: Sell grain for $136.00 a bushel. Billions are spent on non producers that pay no taxes and immigrants who recieve checks that total around $2,300 dollars a month. Is it just me? ....
... As you watch the flooding in the Midwest, have you noticed that there
are no farmers running around with stolen plasma TVs or holding stolen
liquor over their heads. There's no looting or yelling "Where's Bush?",
"Where's FEMA?, Where's my check?", or "Why isn't the Gov't out here
saving me and my farm?"
Likewise, I've also noticed there are no reports of any other country coming
to help or sending aid.
And where is Reverends Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton
Posted by drawpaintsing (anonymous) on June 30, 2008 at 1:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)
.......and what is your point?
Posted by sammohon (anonymous) on June 30, 2008 at 1:25 p.m. (Suggest removal)
EnK...there isn't much available on the Georgia project, but here's a starting point:
http://www.integral-online.com/index.php...
Your whole comment is interesting, but I find that the last sentence is key...I would agree that socialists and Democrats have indeed used fear of global warming and other fear based scenarios to rally support for their political agendas in effect hijacking environmentalism which isn't in itself a bad thing, but at least in the construction industry, forced environmentalism such as LEEDS and sustainable design are driving the costs of materials through the roof at a time we sorely need affordable materials.
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 30, 2008 at 1:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I agree wholeheartedly on that Sam.
Sometimes I am not so sure Duany believes that green line either, but he is a very sharp person and speaks in a witty way, so it is hard to tell exactly what he does believe. But, like all artists he works on commission and has to please the client.
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 30, 2008 at 1:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Hey draw, how is it up there in God's Land today? Been over to Lula's lately? :)
Posted by drawpaintsing (anonymous) on June 30, 2008 at 1:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)
What?
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 30, 2008 at 1:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Don't you live in Fayette?
Posted by drawpaintsing (anonymous) on June 30, 2008 at 1:53 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Yes, I didn't understand exactly what you were asking. You threw me completely, with the God's Land" and "Lula"
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 30, 2008 at 1:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I call Jefferson County God's Country, and whenever I am up there on my bike inspecting my spiritual domain I always go to Lula's and sit on the bench and talk to people there.
I get some of my best Natchez news up there!
And I thought you once told me you know me... I thought we might have met at Lula's some time or the other.
Posted by drawpaintsing (anonymous) on June 30, 2008 at 2:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I think I do know you. You once posted on here and signed Marte Ellerbe at the end. I know that person, and I thought it was you. If so, does "305 Magnolia Street" ring a bell? You also signed used other people name. So I was throwed again. If you get the hint, then I do know you, and you may remember me. You are a nice person, if that is you.
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 30, 2008 at 2:17 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Yes, that's me. Sometimes I use the names of historical characters or characters I make up, so that might be a little confusing.
Thanks for the vote of confidence in my character- that puts you in the minority but I do appreciate it.
Posted by drawpaintsing (anonymous) on June 30, 2008 at 2:25 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I'm sorry if I said too much. When I realized I said too much, I tried to have that comment removed so I can send it through email. So forgive me that. Yes, I am from Fayette. Nothing much is going on up there. I'm just trying to make an honest living and raise my son.
But you get back to article, which is what you do so well, before we get jumped on. LOL!
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 30, 2008 at 2:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Well, everyone in Natchez should be aware of the glory of Jefferson County, they are all welcome to VISIT, but not to stay, and they should also be aware of the good conversation that can be had under the canopy of Lula's One Stop.
Lula's is the essence of the American dream. And they are expanding, I see!
Posted by drawpaintsing (anonymous) on June 30, 2008 at 2:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Check your email, EnKiKur.
Posted by overthehill60 (anonymous) on June 30, 2008 at 2:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Frankly I'm very happy with my get away at my ocean front property in Arizona.
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 30, 2008 at 3:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Your email didn't come draw, try it again. :)
Posted by drawpaintsing (anonymous) on June 30, 2008 at 4:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)
It's sent, EnKiKur.
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 30, 2008 at 5:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Did you get one from me draw?
Posted by sammohon (anonymous) on June 30, 2008 at 9:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)
EnK...this probably doesn't belong here, but I posted under the St. Catherine Creek project article, but no one seemed to notice.
Columbus GA has a wonderful riverwalk along the Chattahoochee. It extends for approximately 15 miles and connects Ft. Benning in the south to downtown Columbus and then extends north helping some of the new developments reclaiming their northern part of town which is astonishingly similar to ours.
While their riverwalk is lower and closer to the river than ours and they aren't on nearly as high a bluff and they aren't on the Mississippi, still the similarities are eerie regarding what is in Columbus and what could be in Natchez.
They have made accomodation for brown baggers, runners, walkers, joggers, bicyclists, kayak and canoeists, fishermen and, yes, even skateboarders and skaters. There are historical markers, benches, lighting, trash recepticles, bronze sculptures, brick walls and walks, pea gravel hiking trails, multiple access via ramps and stairs, sea walls, public restrooms, fountains, connections to the Fort and museums and parking for the riverwalk.
Natchez really ought to look at it as a terrific case study.
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on June 30, 2008 at 11:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I guess I will have to wait and see what happens in Natchez with the trails. I groan thinking about the cost of those things Sam. One possible ray of hope is that the dollar may actually self destruct in the next two or three years so if we go on a spending spree before Uncle Sam defaults on his debts we could get all the stuff people want for free.
I'm just very glad I am one of the working poor so don't have any t-bills or bonds!
Posted by sammohon (anonymous) on July 1, 2008 at 12:40 a.m. (Suggest removal)
EnK...in a bear market t-bills and bonds are where you should convert all those corporate stocks you've hoarded, unless, of course, you want the stability of gold...LOL
Posted by EnKiKur (anonymous) on July 1, 2008 at 1:18 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Not if the reason for the bear market is hyperinflation Sam. I don't have any corporate stocks either, thank god.
Gold isn't just stable, it represents economic reality. One problem is getting ahold of it without the government knowing you have it. The next problems is hiding it without anyone else knowing you have it.
Did you know that after having gathered up most of the world's gold central banks have been leasing it out to industry and jewelers, and that is how the price of gold was kept too low for so long? And since the gold is leased the banks still claim to have it though they don't.
Sometime look up the actual amount of gold there is. There is surprisingly little of it and it is estimated that half of all the gold ever mined lies at the bottom of the oceans in shipwrecks.
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